# Forums

## supercharging a Model 3

Hello,

I have a question : what is the maximum speed of charge in kWh of the Model 3 using a supercharger ?

is it possible to reach 120kWh speed rate ?

Thank you

Frederic

TeslaTap.com | 26 november 2017

I believe a Model 3 batteries are 350V, similar to the Model S 60/75 models, which are also 350V. These can charge at a maximum rate of 105 kWh, so the Model 3 is likely to have a maximum 105 kWh charge rate.

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

@fbamiere , @TeslaTap.com

kWh is not a unit of "how fast" (speed) it is a unit of "how much." Watts or kilowatts is a unit of "how fast."

What we know for sure is the extended range Model 3 can add up to 170 miles in 30 minutes. Assuming a 75 kWh battery that works out to be a rate of about 82kW which is likely to be the highest average you'll see for any 30 minute charging period.

The standard range Model 3 charges at 130 miles in 30 which works out to be about 61kW (assuming a 52kWh battery).

So that's a charge rate of 82kW for the long range and 61kW for the short range.

andy.connor.e | 26 november 2017

You're confusing units of measurements. kWh is capacity that would otherwise have been stored over time. You're thinking on kW, or rate of charge. 10kW for an hour is 10kWh. Btw you can find supercharger power on their website.

https://www.tesla.com/models

Scroll about 80% of the way down, where you can find the charging estimator. On the right, theres a button for Supercharger, underneath says to you its 120kW.

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

@andy.connor.e

The Model 3 supercharges much slower than the Model S so your link about the S isn't that helpful. Based on Teslas numbers the Model 3 long range and standard range charge at 82kW and 61kW respectively. (See my post above.)

andy.connor.e | 26 november 2017

Where are u getting that information from?

mntlvr23 | 26 november 2017

@andy - he has taken one general sentence from the website, and can now speak as the definitive expert.

@fbamiere - we will hopefully be getting actual data from some owners in the coming month or two and then we will know much more.

mntlvr23 | 26 november 2017

@TeslaTap - In the specification section of the Model 3 Owners Manual, it does confirm 350V batteries - so I expect that you may be correct.

As for the charging rates shown on the website, I would think that it might have a bit of the underselling involved. Additionally, the lesser number of miles after a 30 minute charge for the standard range vehicle likely has to do somewhat with taper of charge and not the maximum charge rate (as CT has authoritatively postured)

andy.connor.e | 26 november 2017

Ok well i couldnt find that info on Teslas website. So its making more sense to not assume Model 3 has a different supercharger speed.

mntlvr23 | 26 november 2017

@andy - I had thought that it was on the comparison between Model S and Model 3 portion of website - but I see that it is not there (and didn't quickly find it elsewhere). It may have been one of the slides during one of the reveals.

mntlvr23 | 26 november 2017

this would be a great question for @Stannous23 - if he is around and is allowed to answer

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

@mntlvr23 , @andy.connor.e

The information comes from Tesla itself:

It very clearly says:
Standard Battery - Supercharging rate: 130 miles of range per 30 minutes (which is 61kW)
Long Range Battery - Supercharging rate: 170 miles of range per 30 minutes (which is 82kW)

Sure Tesla could be wrong and you two knuckleheads could be right but I'll trust Tesla.

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

BTW, this has been discussed extensively on this forum before. Maybe you just blocked it out of your memory because you still want to believe you're getting a mini Model S for half price! ;-)

mntlvr23 | 26 november 2017

whatever you say boss

by the way, tell us again how the government is forcing Tesla to make EV's

andy.connor.e | 26 november 2017

Thats what i was looking for. Thanks carl.

akgolf | 26 november 2017

Crickets...

mntlvr23 | 26 november 2017

GREAT NEWS (except for Carl T's pride):

On the Tesla Model 3 facebook page - the owner Du'a Leo has a snapshot of his Model 3 charging at a rate of 116 kW (476 mi range/hr)

com/groups/TeslaMotorsModel3/?fref=nf

In another post, he states that he is getting 5 miles per kWhr (though I think that he might be a bit too sloppy with his math on that one)

mntlvr23 | 26 november 2017

Du'a's max rate was with starting with a 10-15% state of charge and that max rate lasted for around 10 minutes.
He also said that it was supercharger dependent - as at some others, he was getting a max rate of 90-96 kW

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

@mntlvr23

You should reread my post above. I make it clear that that is the charge rate for a 30 minute period. As you know charging starts off fast and gets slower. At the end of 30 minutes the maximum rate he should get (according to Tesla) is 82kW for long range battery. The rate published by Tesla (170 miles in 30 minutes for the 310 mile 75kWh battery) _is_ exactly 82kW. No more, no less. It's not an interpretation, it's basic math.

WantMY | 26 november 2017

Supercharger rates are function of the battery capacity. The variations in onboard AC chargers have no impact on Supercharger DC charging rates, battery capacity does. If you read a little about Tesla design you would know this fact - when supercharger is connected the contractor in Junction box will disconnect AC charger circuit and connect it to HV battery DIRECTLY.

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

@mntlvr23

To make it easier for you here's the part you missed:
"... that works out to be a rate of about 82kW which is likely to be the highest average you'll see for any 30 minute charging period."

WantMY | 26 november 2017

@CT "... that works out to be a rate of about 82kW which is likely to be the highest average you'll see for any 30 minute charging period." - wrong - 82KW is average rate, Max/Min will be different during charging progress.

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

@WantM3:
"wrong - 82KW is average rate, Max/Min will be different during charging progress."

What? Don't you see the words "average [for] 30 minute charging period" in what you quoted? What you just said is the exact same thing I said!

mntlvr23 | 26 november 2017

@CT - When @andy attempted to address the OP pointing to a charging estimator showing 120 kW - you stated "The Model 3 supercharges much slower than the Model S so your link about the S isn't that helpful" - so please tell me - at 116kW, is this much slower than a Model S?

WantMY | 26 november 2017

@mntlvr23 Model S has more battery capacities number than number of people who got invite to configure Model 3. It would be pointless to compare. We could simply assume the charge rate will be similar to Model S with similar battery capacity.

KP in NPT | 26 november 2017
KP in NPT | 26 november 2017

To recap: Elon Musk himself says the Model 3 charge time is comparable to the P100D. So not "much slower than the Model S."

mntlvr23 | 26 november 2017

@CT - but thanks for repeating the non-relevant information a few times to make it seem like you weren't wrong

dyefrog | 26 november 2017

Wouldn't highest average be an oxymoron?

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

@mntlvr23

The Model S 75 also charges at 170 miles in 30 minutes. BUT... the Model S is less efficient than the Model 3 so that same number of miles is actually more kWh.

So if you do the math for the car's respective charge rates over 30 minutes:

Model S 75: 98 kW
Model 3 LR: 82 kW
Model 3 SR: 61 kW

So, yes, the Model 3 does supercharge much slower than the Model S: 98 kW for the Model S vs 82 or 61 kW for the Model 3.

Yes, you can find instantaneous (momentary) charge rates that are higher (and lower) but they are not useful because no one drives to a supercharger and charges for only a minute. What's useful is your charge rate over a reasonable charging time (30 minutes).

I'll give a different example which will hopefully make it easier for you to understand. Let's say you drive from Baltimore to Philadelphia for a cheesesteak and average 62 MPH on the trip. At one point in the trip you're at a stoplight and race the guy in the Mustang next to you when the light turns green and get up to 100 MPH before slowing back down to a reasonable speed. When you talk about your trip is it useful to know that when you were at the stoplight you were going 0 MPH? Is it useful to know that at one point you were going 100 MPH? No. What's important and useful is that you averaged 62 MPH for the trip.

It's the same for supercharging which is why Tesla talks about 30 minute charging sessions. Because the charging rate you might get over just a few minutes isn't useful.

You really don't want to argue with me over math and logic; you won't win.

KP in NPT | 26 november 2017

God.

Question from Colin Langan UBS Securities:
“And what about, just as a follow-up, the charge time? I know Porsche has said that they could charge in 15 minutes. Do you think that’s possible in the future? And is the charge time on the 3 the same as the S? I wasn’t sure in some of the release.”

Elon Reeve Musk – Tesla, Inc.
“It’s about the same. It’s comparable to the high-end S. The recharge rate of how many miles per hour you recharge is sort of a function of the battery pack size. So, like a 100 kilowatt-hour pack, because charge rate is a function of percentage of pack – think of 3 and a high end S as being similar in charge rates.”

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

@KP

Yes, in miles per unit of time the long range Model 3 charges as fast as the Model S (but the standard range does not). But if you read the OP you'd see the question was about the charge rate in kW. You are answering a different question than that which was asked.

WantMY | 26 november 2017

Hey @OP thanks for asking dumb question, it sure kept few of us entertained. LoL

The key in Elon’s quote is “how many miles per hour you recharge.” This metric can be comparable to the S even though the charge rate (in kW) is lower, because Model 3 is a smaller, more efficient car.

mntlvr23 | 26 november 2017

@CT - you can repeat your numbers over and over, they are irrelevant to the OP and to my comments. No one is discussing the average rate over two distinct points of charge ... except you.

Andy attempted to answer it with his 120kW response
You told Andy that he was wrong.
I provided additional information that has indeed been reported to be around 120 (116 in the owner's post)
You keep repeating your calculations that do not answer the OP - somehow thinking that this changes the chain of events.

I really don't care to argue with you any further. You are disingenuous, repetitive and obtuse.
g'nite

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

@WantM3

I don't see how the OP's question was dumb. Some of the responses here might be characterized as dumb because the responders didn't understand the question or don't understand 5th grade math. But it would be rude to say so.

KP in NPT | 26 november 2017

And there it is.

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

"The key in Elon’s quote is 'how many miles per hour you recharge.'"

But that's not the question the OP asked. He or she explicitly asked about charging rates in kW.

@CT, right, and as you noted, it is less. I was just trying to explain why.

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

The OP, apparently!

I didn't ask _why_ he or she was asking the question (maybe I should have). I just answered the question.

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

@mntlvr23:
" you can repeat your numbers over and over ..."

They're not my numbers. They're Tesla's numbers. If you want to write to them and tell them they're wrong be my guest.

WantMY | 26 november 2017

The OP question did not carry any useful context, so any answer would carry no useful info. It was just bait to get folks argue with each other over nothing burger.

MKM3 | 26 november 2017

Well, everyone who has to pay for their electricity at the SC in *minutes* apparently cares.
Tesla won't claim a max. charge rate, because - as any other EV - that rate is only available for a short time at a very specific SOC. As the screenshot proves, it'll be around ~90-100kW tops.

So NO, you won't reach 120kW and the Model 3 won't Megacharge, as some here speculated a couple of months ago. Just look up an old thread, George explained it perfectly.
18500 cells vs. 2170 cells, the amount of cells matters in regard of maximum charging speeds obtainable.

Carl Thompson | 26 november 2017

@MKM3:
"... the amount of cells matters in regard of maximum charging speeds obtainable."

This. I was going to bring that up too but people were already too confused and Tesla's own charge rate numbers were enough.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 26 november 2017

MKM3: At least, not until the Model 3 P135D arrives...

andy.connor.e | 27 november 2017

I think whats important is the average charging speed over the duration it takes you to get to your respected battery % charged amount.

You can fill a waterbottle at an average of 0.5L/min, without mentioning that its peak flow rate was 3.0L/min. If it cannot maintain that 3.0L/min for the full fill time, it doesnt matter. Because when you're sitting at a supercharger waiting for 80% capacity, it doesnt matter what the peak power flow is so long as THAT peak is not sustained.

You can run 5 miles at an average of 6min/mile, even though your PEAK speed could have been 3min/mile. Your peak doesnt matter. Its the sustained speed throughout the entire distance.

What you guys are not understanding, is the average charging speed over the entire duration of being hooked up to the supercharger. When you plug in Model 3, it may have a 114kW charging power. But if it cannot sustain that over the entire duration, the statistical significant figures are the average power flow over the duration in which it was hooked up.

MKM3 | 27 november 2017

@andy.connor.e
...an now read what CT wrote in post #2 on this thread... sorry but 90% of this forum is people crying BS / FUD / trolling on other posts.

Maybe it's easier to understand mi/30 minutes of all of you folks using the imperial system (rating fuel consumption in miles to the imp/US gallon), but in the rest of the world, kWh are pretty straight forward just like liters per 100km.
Added rated range is a nice way to guesstimate time in every day use if you already own the vehicle, if you'll have to work out the math if a particular EV is financially feasible you'll end up with raw kWh used for a certain distance (kWh/100km / Wh per km).
It's really not that confusing...

MKM3 | 27 november 2017

It'd be great if an actual Model 3 owner would be able to post a charging graph, like Bjorn Nyland did several times with his S and X.

tripplett | 27 november 2017

Aaaand I'll never get those last 20 minutes back...

ReD eXiLe ms us | 27 november 2017

MKM3: It is because of differences in preference of units that some choose to simply use percentages instead.

170 miles ÷ 310 miles = 0.5483870968

So, you can add about 54.8% of range in half an hour. If one presumes that is beginning at 20% State of Charge, you can get to about 75% in half an hour. If the next Supercharger on your road trip is less than 170 miles (273.5885 km) away, you should be able to reach it with around 20% reserve remaining. Or, you could discharge to about 10% remaining if you prefer between charging stops, and only fill up to around 65%. Same difference.

jordanrichard | 27 november 2017

This whole discussion about charging rate/time reminds me of one of the most often asked questions I get with my MS. How long does it take to charge. Simple question, complicated answer. What SOC am I starting at, is the battery stone cold, what am I plugged into, how much range do I need to reach the next stop, am I paired up at a supercharger, what is the max output of what I am plugged into., etc, etc, etc.

So I just tell people 20 minutes.