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(Ideas) New models for Tesla Motors

(Ideas) New models for Tesla Motors

Hey guys, I've been thinking about why would I buy a car, and pretty much the model is the reason, I would give little importance to the source of energy if I like the design. However, I would also like to try an electric car in my favorite design, muscle cars, would'nt it be cool?

mohammad | 2015年1月4日

In some ways the Model S is already a muscle car, especially the P85D with that 0-60 in 3.2 seconds. The Dodge Hellcat cannot keep up with that.
At the same time, the Model S is also equivalent in size and wheelbase to a 7-series, S-class, LS, A7 or whatever flagship moniker.
This car is in the $70k to $140k range.

They need a crossover - Model X.
They need a 3-series or Acura TSX size/price equivalent - Model 3???
They need a high-capacity carrying or towing monster that would rival Tahoe/Suburban or F-150/Sierra/Ram - no model thought of yet.
They need a compact - maybe Model 3 or something smaller?
They need a two-seat roadster - bring back the next generation Tesla Roadster.

Grinnin'.VA | 2015年1月5日

@ mohammad | January 4, 2015

They need a two-seat roadster - bring back the next generation Tesla Roadster.

I don't think so. IMO, the roadster was an experimental model.
And a huge success for Tesla as they developed their BEV technology. However, the market for such vehicles is quite small. I see no way for making such a model profitable without charging at least $150k for the base price. I believe Tesla has several other more promising types of vehicles to build.

Why do you think Tesla should do this?

Go Tesla!

holidayday | 2015年1月5日

Tesla can do both Roadsters, based on the Model 3 platform. I'll equate it to Audi having two separate Roadsters.
Audi TT Roadster "starting at $43,350"
Audi R8 Spyder "starting at $129,400"

Tesla can have a "regular" performer, with "regular" design matching the Model 3 lines with a Model 3 Roadster. This can be similar in features and design like the Audi TT, BMW Z4, or others. Price can start in a similar $40,000 - $50,000 range.

And of course, they can go high-end, higher than the Model S P85D, with a Tesla Model 3 P300D with Visual Sporty Package. (translation: "Looks fast") This can be similar in features and design like Lamborghini, Ferrari, or others. Have a special driver's course to handle the specific performance characteristics of the car, and start the thing at $120,000.

Brian H | 2015年1月5日

Elon has committed to building THE supercar after the M3.

rlwrw | 2015年1月5日

Local cargo hauling.
Vans, delivery trucks, etc.
I have seen medium size trailered Coca Cola delivery trucks in the Los Angeles area with signage on them that they are "all electric."
Tesla can build smaller trucks on the current MS skateboard.

Captain_Zap | 2015年1月5日

I'm waiting for a sport coupe. The Model S is just a car to get me by until then. I really liked the size and driving dynamics of my old BMW 850. It was a heavy car that was way ahead of its time. It handled its weight very well. In corners it was sweet. It was the closest thing to endless torque I had until the Model S came along. It had lots of storage for a car its size.
I think I am missing the shorter wheelbase.

chuq | 2015年1月6日

Something out of left field...
How about a campervan (RV)?

It would be heavy and have poor wind resistance, but you could put 2 or 3 85kWh battery packs in it!

james.nicklin | 2015年1月6日

it would be heavy, yes, but it wouldn't NEED to have bad aero.

Brian H | 2015年1月6日

Stretchla!

holidayday | 2015年1月7日

I've supported the RV EV a couple of times on the forums here.

Make one similar in size to a Sprinter van, and a larger class A size.
The main problem is that there will need to be specialized SuperDuperChargers to handle the size. (either separate bus / truck parking or pull-through)

Put these SuperDuperCharger locations in popular branded truck stops in the US (Love's, Petro, etc)

An added bonus - in the big version, have a garage that fits the Roadster.

JeffreyR | 2015年1月7日

@HolidayDay

How about a truck that could haul a "5th-wheel" trailer? You would also be able to tow boats and other trailers (like for your Roadster), and you would be able to use all the Supercharger sites already built. I have family friends that are trading in their RV for a diesel version of such a truck plus the new RV trailer. They've had the RV for years and have been all over the country in it.

Their reasons for truck + 5th-wheel:
- AC works (much better) in the truck. They live outside of Las Vegas so this is very important to them.
- More maneuverable. Can turn much, much easier.
- Have a truck you can use at home or on the road. Much easier to run errands on the road. Can haul things.
- Tow other things like "Ski-dos" (my dad's way of referring to a jet ski or seado)
- Less maintenance. They are ditching some features they were not using so they don't need to check pumps and generators (not a nessecary improvement)

All they see they are losing is the ability to ride in the back of the RV which you cannot do in the trailer

holidayday | 2015年1月7日

Jeffrey: "How about a truck that could haul a "5th-wheel" trailer?"

That could be on the same platform as the Sprinter van size model. Something towing 5000 plus pounds would need that extra battery space make it possible, otherwise, you could tow it 100 miles and need to recharge.

3seeker | 2015年1月7日

How about an autonomous bus?

The "strechla" RV sounds nice LOL!

Red Sage ca us | 2015年1月7日

mohammad: I'm looking forward to the day when the Ford Mustang, Chevrolet Camaro, and Dodge Challenger are all available as fully electric versions. Tesla Motors shouldn't have to make one of their own. Any Model ☰ Coupe in performance trim would cut into the traditional pony car sales by so much, they would have no choice but to follow suit.

JeffreyR: That sounds much like what I envision as a Tesla Model P 220. A dual motor, all wheel drive, crew cab, unibody, dually pickup truck with Class 4 towing ability. I would expect it to be unveiled around 2020, and released in 2022.

Grinnin'.VA | 2015年1月8日

@ Brian H | January 5, 2015

Elon has committed to building THE supercar after the M3.

Well, he has the clout to make this happen.
However, I think it would set back progress toward Tesla's stated primary goal by about a couple of years. Not a fatal decision, but IMO it would clearly be a distraction and a waste of resources.

Come on, "performance car" enthusiasts: What is the total market share of all supercars combined?

Juggernaut | 2015年1月8日

Sharp, sporty, utility, practical, etc..... The supercharger network has peaked my interest. Access to that in any shape or form should do well. Get it to where a deep thinking Alabama hayseed like myself can get in to one and look out California; Here I come...

Red Sage ca us | 2015年1月9日

Grinnin' Ron asked, "What is the total market share of all supercars combined?"

When the time comes that a person can get Supercar performance for $25,000 or so, that market will be very, very large indeed. Among the passenger cars sold in the United States of America in 2014...
QUANTITY VEHICLE
142,232 BMW 3-Series
86,297 Chevrolet Camaro
82,635 Ford Mustang
51,611 Dodge Challenger
34,839 Chevrolet Corvette
Oh, and the BMW 3-Series, meant to be the primary target for Tesla Model ☰, outsold the Toyota Prius by 6,192 units in 2014. It also outsold Chevrolet Impala, Nissan Versa, Subaru Outback, Chrysler 200, Mazda 3, Volkswagen Passat, Dodge Charger, and Chevrolet Sonic in the top 25.

Grinnin'.VA | 2015年1月10日

@ Red Sage ca us | January 9, 2015

Among the passenger cars sold in the United States of America in 2014... the BMW 3-Series, ... outsold the Toyota Prius by 6,192 units in 2014.

QUANTITY VEHICLE
142,232 BMW 3-Series

According to a well-known consumer product testing company Toyota Prius sold 192,958 while BMW 3/4 Series 122,768 in 2014. I think that was January - November. The same source, which I subscribe to, reported sales of 396,988 for the Camry.

The sales numbers from my source disagree substantially from yours. Do you know what may have caused that discrepancy?

Go Tesla!

jomei | 2015年1月10日

wish of new models:
- an X-model, comparable in size and cost with BMW X1 (I don't know how the announced X model looks like, but that one is probably too expensive) ...such a model would really wake up the competitors BMW, Audi and Mercedes
- a model, a bit larger than the LEAF (more spece for luggage), and only at a slightly higher price : this would suit for many families and TAXIS... at least in European countries as Germany, Netherland and Norway. ( I do not know if this would be fullfilled by model 3 ?)
- and the range should be comparable with the present model S

The above models would lead to a real sales boom - in my opinion.

Red Sage ca us | 2015年1月11日

As of January 11, 2015...
1) Toyota Camry 428,606
2) Honda Accord 388,374
16) BMW 3-Series & 4-Series 142,232
20) Toyota Prius 136,040
25) Chevrolet Camaro 86,297

GoodCarBadCar -- Top 25 Best-Selling Cars in America, 2014 Year End

Brian H | 2015年1月11日

flash;
piqued Means stimulated.

RS;
While the Roadster II will be based on the M3 frame, it will be many multiples of $25K. A halo, showpiece, show-off car. Volumes will be moderate to low, insufficient to move the needle directly on TM's profitability, regardless of margin. Indirectly, though ....

Grinnin'.VA | 2015年1月12日

@ Red Sage ca us | January 11, 2015

As of January 11, 2015...

1) Toyota Camry 428,606
2) Honda Accord 388,374

I'm wondering when Tesla intends to take on such top-selling cars. Evidently, not with the M3. But when? AFIK, the answer is "Soon".

Rocky_H | 2015年1月12日

@Grinnin', "I'm wondering when Tesla intends to take on such top-selling cars. [Camry, Accord] Evidently, not with the M3. But when?"

Actually, I think that is a grey area because of the long term cost of ownership involved with the fuel savings. The Model 3 is stated to be targeting the BMW 3 series, rather than Camries and Accords, but those are in the discussion just on the basis of the numbers. Most people I know just aren't in the income categories to buy luxury cars, so I don't go recommending people to buy a Model S, which is 3X what they would spend for a car. They buy cars that are in the $25K to $35K range. That is smack dab in the average car price range where Camries and Accords live. I point out that electricity is a way cheaper fuel than gasoline, so you will save 10 to 15 thousand dollars over the life of a car versus a mid-priced gas model. So when the Model 3 comes along in a few years, you might look at an electric car at $40K, and it's a wash versus a gas car at $30K. So I am kind of priming the pump for them to consider the Model 3 when it comes along.

jonlivesay | 2015年1月12日

Next after model 3? Full size truck, Elon has talked about this early and offen. Super Car, yes but not on model 3 platform. More likely on modelX platform. Roadster II will definitely be on model 3 platform. Dont forget his wish to make an electric jet! I'd so look after model 3 roll-out, possible conversion kits for some cars. Got to mo e batteries

wapencio | 2015年1月17日

Well, the idea is to get some electric good performance and fun to drive cars at an affordable price (say 20k-50k), with a nice presentation (like mustangs, charger, camaro); it would indeed have a good market, since the product is affordable, the owners would preffer the FREE battery recharge rather than the gas refill, it would be a boom.

Grinnin'.VA | 2015年1月19日

@ Rocky_H | January 12, 2015

@Grinnin', "I'm wondering when Tesla intends to take on such top-selling cars. [Camry, Accord] Evidently, not with the M3. But when?"

@jonlivesay | January 12, 2015

Next after model 3? Full size truck, Elon has talked about this early and offen. Super Car, yes but not on model 3 platform. More likely on modelX platform. Roadster II ...

Doesn't look to me like you guys to want Tesla to target the Camry until maybe a decade from now! Yet it is the Camry-class car that best represents the car market. Targeting sporty cars is, IMO, a huge distraction from Tesla's stated primary goal.

@wapencio | January 17, 2015

the owners would preffer the FREE battery recharge ..., it would be a boom.

"FREE ..." is marketing hype, made to appeal to gullible people.
There is no such thing.

Model ☰ | 2015年1月19日

@Grinnin'
Doesn't look to me like you guys to want Tesla to target the Camry until maybe a decade from now!

That is not the case, but realistic we know that it will take some time for Tesla to be able to produce cars fast enough that it make sense to go for that marked. They will need to build some more GF's and car pants first. And for a lot of people Model 3 will be close enough.

My guess (and hope!) is that before Tesla is ready to attack that marked, there will be a lot of competition here. Even Toyota will have to realize the truth about BEV's and Fool-Cells sooner or later...

Rocky_H | 2015年1月19日

@Grinnin', HEY! You just quoted the part where I quoted from you and then left out anything I said. Read my reply. I said the Model 3 WOULD compete against Camries and Accords.

Brian H | 2015年1月19日

Ugh; Model ☰, blow your nose. There is no such thing as a 'marked'. It's a market.

"Are we there yet?" Childish.

Detroit SuperCharger | 2015年1月19日

@Model ☰ : "They will need to build some more GF's and car pants first." GirlFriends and Car Pants.

Obvious typo aside, I couldn't stop laughing at that, so I figured I'd shine light on it :) Go Tesla! Car Pant Diem!!

Model ☰ | 2015年1月19日

:p

Red Sage ca us | 2015年1月20日

Grinnin' Ron wrote, "Doesn't look to me like you guys to want Tesla to target the Camry until maybe a decade from now!"

It's like all the people who want me to get married, so they can 'see me happy'... First off, they don't acknowledge that I'm already happy. Secondly, they don't realize it isn't so much that I don't want to get married... It's that I don't want to get married -- to the wrong woman. Not a risk I want to take.

Even with doubling capacity with regularity on an annual basis, it will take about a decade before Tesla motors can legitimately take on Camry/Corolla, Accord/Civic, Altima/Sentra, Fusion/Focus, Sonata/Elantra, Optima/Rio, or other combinations of vehicles in volume worldwide. If Tesla Motors wanted to sell cars solely in the United States of America, and no other territories, they still would fall short of Camry levels of sales alone in the US by the end of 2020. I do not want Tesla Motors to take on that challenge before they have both the revenue and the capacity to deliver in a timely fashion.

Even if US sales of the Tesla Model ☰ exceed those of the BMW 3-Series as I expect they will, it may still fall short of reaching the Top 10 Ranking in new passenger car sales.
YEAR END CAPACITY
2013 25,000
2014 50,000
2015 100,000
2016 200,000
2017 400,000
2018 800,000
2019 1,600,000
2020 3,200,000
2021 6,400,000
2022 12,800,000

Grinnin'.VA | 2015年1月20日

@ Red Sage ca us | January 20, 2015

Grinnin' Ron wrote, "Doesn't look to me like you guys to want Tesla to target the Camry until maybe a decade from now!"

Even with doubling capacity with regularity on an annual basis, it will take about a decade before Tesla motors can legitimately take on Camry/Corolla, ...

the Tesla Model ☰ ... may still fall short of reaching the Top 10 Ranking in new passenger car sales.

Your projection is for Tesla to make 400,000 cars in 2017. According to my source, the top-selling car model in the U.S. for 2014 was the Camry with less than 500,000 in U.S. sales. So you're suggesting that while Tesla could build over half as many M3s well before the end of this decade, Tesla should not target Camry buyers this decade. Is that right?

Just a reminder. Most Camrys sell for under $35k. Initially, the M3 should be expected to appeal mostly to Camry buyers who are prepared to spend $35k or more.

You prefer for Tesla to target BMW cars as the primary competition for the M3. Right? IMO, Camry is a larger and easier target for the M3. Do you agree? If not, please explain why.

I'll end this one with another unconventional claim: Tesla could succeed splendidly without selling a single car to a BMW owner or prospective BMW owner. On the other hand, Tesla can't achieve its stated goal without selling a lot of cars to Camry owners and prospective Camry owners.

Go Tesla

Grinnin'.VA | 2015年1月20日

@ Rocky_H | January 19, 2015

@Grinnin', HEY! You ... I said the Model 3 WOULD compete against Camries and Accords.

No slight intended. I agree that the M3 will sell a lot of cars to Camry and Accord owners even if they design the M3 to compete with BMW cars. I was questioning the wisdom of Tesla designing the M3 to compete with BMW cars as its primary competition. I read your post as supporting Tesla's stated intent to design the M3 to compete with BMW cars as its primary competition.

BTW, I suspect that in designing the M3 to compete with BMW cars as its primary competition, Tesla will make engineering tradeoffs that make the M3 less attractive to Camry and Accord buyers. I regard that as a mistake.

Go Tesla!

Rocky_H | 2015年1月20日

I didn't say I support it or not. I said that EVEN THOUGH that is what Tesla says they are targeting with the car attributes, the price and total cost of ownership make it competitive with the Camries and Accords because the 10 to 15 thousand dollars of savings with electricity versus gas make them equivalent in price. So the comparison shopping will be there anyway, even if that's not the competition that they talk about.

Rocky_H | 2015年1月20日

Also, consider what aspects of a BMW would normally would make it a less compelling choice to a Camry or Accord purchaser. I am from that type of car buying segment, so these are my mindsets as well:

Upkeep: The great reliability and cheap maintenance of the Honda and Toyota makes are a big attraction versus the more frequent failures and expensive maintenance and parts of upkeeping a BMW. In an electric vehicle, that isn't much of a factor.

Gas mileage: This is the traditional tradeoff of performance. If people don't care about performance as much, they would rather have better gas mileage, so they would not choose the sporty BMW. With running on electric, that issue kind of becomes moot, where it's so cheap to fuel that you can have fun performance too, as a bonus, and it's not really "wasting" a bunch of fuel, as gas cars do if they have big engines.

Price: Buyers in that segment are prioritizing transportation, not sports car driving, so the high price tag doesn't get them anything they want and isn't worth it. The big savings from fuel of a Tesla Model 3 versus a Camry wipes out the up front price difference.

So with the three biggest factors being mostly eliminated because of the nature of an EV, it could be somewhat compelling to that buyer to be able to "move up" and get a car with more prestige and performance for the same total cost of ownership, and without the downsides you would traditionally have to deal with if you were comparing two gasoline cars.

Chromeon | 2015年1月20日

I'm 16, I am very interested in becoming a mechanic. I want to specialize in brakes, I've replaced all the brake pads and rotors on my car, not a big deal, but I learned a lot. I feel like I could work for Tesla and design a new braking system, something... better. I am only 16, and cannot confirm that when I do have the opportunity to work for them, I do not know what I will be interested in. I would love to work for this amazing company.

Model ☰ | 2015年1月20日

@Grinnin'
BTW, I suspect that in designing the M3 to compete with BMW cars as its primary competition, Tesla will make engineering tradeoffs that make the M3 less attractive to Camry and Accord buyers. I regard that as a mistake.

... and BTW, when I buy a Model 3 it will replace an Accord :p (if I can make it hold out that long ;) )

Ok, you may say "Carmy and Accord buyers do not care about performance", and probably be correct to a certain extent. But, if we don't care about performance, why would we choice to NOT buy it just because it has more performance then we're used to? I will not buy it for it's performance, but I don't mind if it got some more power then what it replace. The extra power (that I suspect it will have) will just be a bonus. :) And if I don't want that extra power, or just wants some more range, it is just to not push it all the way down...

Brian H | 2015年1月20日

Model ☰;
chose
than
than

How attractive is the performance "bonus"?

Grinnin'.VA | 2015年1月20日

@ Model ☰ | January 20, 2015

@Grinnin'

... and BTW, when I buy a Model 3 it will replace an Accord :p (if I can make it hold out that long ;) )

I'd guess you'll enjoy owning an M3. I certainly hope so.

Ok, you may say "Carmy and Accord buyers do not care about performance"

For the record, I never wrote any such thing because I don't believe it.

I think many Camry and Accord owners select those cars partially because they accelerate faster than the Prius. BTW, there are more than a few Prius owners who buy MSes. I'm one of them.

Go Tesla!

Red Sage ca us | 2015年1月20日

Grinnin' Ron wrote, "Your projection is for Tesla to make 400,000 cars in 2017."

Actually, no... My projection is that during 2017, Tesla Motors will produce ~270,000 cars at Fremont. That would be ~50,000 Model S, ~150,000 Model X, and ~70,000 Model ☰. Not all those produced in 2017 will be delivered that year. I expect that ~9,000 to ~15,000 of the Model ☰ built during 2017 would be sent to buyers in Asia or Europe, for delivery in Quarter 1 2018.

Grinnin' Ron wrote, "So you're suggesting that while Tesla could build over half as many M3s well before the end of this decade, Tesla should not target Camry buyers this decade. Is that right?"

Not with the Model ☰, and not in the US, and not in any other specific territory. Are you suggesting Tesla Motors should only sell the Model ☰ in the US, in order to topple the Camry here, ignoring all other territories?

Tesla Motors will be able to match and surpass the worldwide production of BMW 3-Series long before they will be able to do so with the Toyota Camry. The Camry is a big seller worldwide, not just in the US.

Grinnin' Ron wrote, "You prefer for Tesla to target BMW cars as the primary competition for the M3. Right?"

It doesn't matter what I prefer. This is a strategy that Tesla Motors has adopted. They did so for reasons I have already pointed out. Thus, I believe it will work as intended.

Grinnin' Ron wrote, "IMO, Camry is a larger and easier target for the M3. Do you agree? If not, please explain why."

No. The Camry is a very hard target to take down. It took over the crown from the Ford Taurus, which ruled the roost for maybe a couple of years after the Honda Accord did so in North America. The Camry has effectively been #1 ever since. This has been about twenty years straight. Honda settled into the number two position and has been fine with it. The Ford Taurus faded into obscurity... Was replaced by the Ford 500, which failed miserably... And that was replaced by the Ford Fusion, which has done much better. Everyone else is fighting to climb over the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla hoping to someday take the number three spot. Nissan has the Altima and Sentra which sell fairly well. This is an extremely important, highly contested segment of the market that Hyundai and Kia, after more than two decades, have finally managed to crack the top ten. At this point, long established players, such as Mazda and Volkswagen, have no hope of managing the same feat, even though they make superb products.

For that matter, the BMW 3-Series is a hard enough target of its own. According to reviews in recent years, almost everyone in the market segment has caught up to BMW on all aspects that used to set them apart from the pack. That said, BMW 3-Series still leads sales in its market segment by a wide, wide margin. But at least it is a target that can be reasonably expected to be assailed by Tesla Motors with their projected worldwide capacity within the next few years. It is also a crowded space, but just as Model S managed to outsell Jaguar, Lexus, AUDI, Mercedes-Benz, et al on the high end, they should be able to take them on readily in this price range as well.

Plenty of people who end up buying the Tesla Model ☰ will be those who were shopping for a Camry or Accord. Just as people who would never have considered any car over $70,000 got the Model S, those who would not have considered a car over $35,000 will get the Model ☰. But in order to get them to do so, you must offer them something that is not available from anyone else at up to $50,000. The vehicles must present a compelling reason to move up the price scale.

PhillyGal | 2015年1月20日

I've mentioned my fantasy before but will say it again:

Tesla makes several sized "skateboards" (nice term rlwrw) and other manufacturers of iconic vehicles (Mustang, Wrangler, etc) make bodies that can be popped right on. X amount of physical connections, Y amount of technical connections and bam!

Brian H | 2015年1月20日

PG;
But how would they fill up the "hump"? /;p

Grinnin';
That's about the size of it. The EV aspect fuzzes the borders of the traditional vehicle classes and bands.

Putting a per diem "driving enjoyment" $ value into the calc'n would perhaps shortcut many assessments.

Grinnin'.VA | 2015年1月21日

@ Red Sage ca us | January 20, 2015 new

Grinnin' Ron wrote, "Your projection is for Tesla to make 400,000 cars in 2017." Actually, no...

Sorry I misunderstood your table of capacity vs year.

Grinnin' Ron wrote, "So you're suggesting that while Tesla could build over half as many M3s well before the end of this decade, Tesla should not target Camry buyers this decade. Is that right?"

IMO, your capacity vs. year table implies that, given the role of the M3 in Tesla's project future. Your projected capacity for 2019 was 1,600,000! Surely you don't think Tesla will have the capacity of building millions of cars "before the end of this decade" and then build less than a million M3s. Or do you expect Tesla to build such huge capacity and then use it for other things?

Are you suggesting Tesla Motors should only sell the Model ☰ in the US, in order to topple the Camry here, ignoring all other territories?

No. Since I've never suggested such a thing. I selected the Camry as the representative "mass-market" car because it is the top seller in the U.S. I'm suggesting that "to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport", which is Tesla's official goal, Tesla will need to make cars that compete well against the best selling cars. I'm quite aware of the fact that Elon has said quite clearly that they want to compete against BMW instead. IMO, that will delay progress toward Tesla's goal.

Tesla Motors will be able to match and surpass the worldwide production of BMW 3-Series long before they will be able to do so with the Toyota Camry.

This debating point isn't about when Tesla will match or surpass Toyoto's or BMW's production or sales. It's about when Tesla will seriously start designing cars with the primary intent of competing head-to-head with the best-selling mass-market cars. It appears to me that Tesla's plan is to continue its focus on "sports cars", waiting until some time in the 2020s to seriously try to challenge Toyoto, Nissan, GM and other mass-market car manufacturers.

It doesn't matter what I prefer.

I think it's a bit odd that you denounce my preferences while refusing to state your preferences.

Grinnin' Ron wrote, "IMO, Camry is a larger and easier target for the M3. Do you agree? If not, please explain why."

No. The Camry is a very hard target to take down.

This is a surprise to me since:

1. Camrys have 0-60 times of 6.4 - 8.4 seconds.
2. You have suggested that a potential MS variant with a 6-sec 0-60 time would be a "gimped" or inadequate car even if it had more range than the S85D.
3. I thought you considered fast acceleration essential for a Tesla car. Obviously, it isn't essential for a Camry.

Please explain this.

The vehicles must present a compelling reason to move up the price scale.

Like beauty, "compelling" is very much in the eye of the beholder. Tesla owners include many "performance car enthusiasts". Even quite a few who enjoy racing cars, both on tracks and on the public highways. Such people are not even close to the majority of car buyers. Mass market cars do NOT become top sellers by delivering "compelling" performance. Most car buyers have other priorities.

I'm quite aware of Elon's statements about Tesla needing to build "compelling cars". He also said they had to be far better than other cars in every way. IMO, that's marketing hype. No way in hell does any variant deliver better range and refueling convenience than the Camry or any Lexus. Some of what Elon says seems to me to be to shock people with astounding claims. Some of those stretch reality beyond the breaking point. Such 'shock-and-awe' tactics may have worked well in getting Tesla to this point. From here into the future, I believe Tesla will need to deal more candidly with reality.

FREE ENERGY | 2015年1月21日

And....LIT Motors !!!

holidayday | 2015年1月21日

Grinnin: "No way in hell does any variant deliver better range and refueling convenience than the Camry or any Lexus"

if you are ONLY looking at range and refueling convenience, then you are correct.

However, people are complicated and look at a bunch of factors when getting a car.
Reliability: How long will it go before something breaks down? How much will it cost to repair and/or maintain? EVs are superior in this respect because they have a simple electric motor that replaces a gas engine that needs continuous maintenance.
Safety: How will passengers fair in an accident?
Looks: This is extremely subjective as some people find the same car either beautiful or ugly. Sleek lines generally make for a good looking car.
Price: This is the primary item for most people. However, many people will pay more up front for higher reliability, lower maintenance, and lower fuel costs. (Which is why the Prius sells a lot, even though many people dislike the looks.)

Telsa is relying on lower fuel and maintenance costs to target the Corolla and Camry owners. Some will buy a Tesla, some will still buy what they know. Tesla may come up with attractive leases when the time comes. We will not know this until 2018-2020 when production of the Model 3 gets into full swing.

vgarbutt | 2015年1月21日

I am hoping that each new annual version of the model 3, will be less expensive, go further and be smarter than the year before.

Used model 3's will be hot and much more affordable for a first car.

Perhaps one day EM will make an economy version to get the last stragglers replaced.

Sam_S | 2015年1月21日

Cement Mixer and Garbage Truck soon please.

JeffreyR | 2015年1月21日

+1 @Fastwalker

I've been waiting for news about the C-1 for years (or at least it seems that way). Check out my post about Lit Motors here:

http://my.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/should-tesla-motors-acquire-lit-m...

Grinnin'.VA | 2015年1月22日

@ holidayday | January 21, 2015

Grinnin: "No way in hell does any variant deliver better range and refueling convenience than the Camry or any Lexus"
if you are ONLY looking at range and refueling convenience, then you are correct.

I wrote that as an example of the lack of candor or reality in Elon's statement that Tesla cars need to be better than the competition in every way. No way in hell did I ever say that range and refueling convenience were the ONLY things that matter to me or anyone else. Only that these attributes are important to lots of car buyers.

Reliability: How long will it go before something breaks down? How much will it cost to repair and/or maintain? EVs are superior in this respect because they have a simple electric motor that replaces a gas engine that needs continuous maintenance.

My wife and I have driven our Priuses about 100,000 miles. The only repair/maintenance expenses we've had are for a headlamp, routine checkups, tires, brakes, etc. As best I can estimate, I'll pay more for driving my MS 100,000 miles.

Safety: How will passengers fair in an accident?

Prius has a 5-star safety rating. The MS sets a new record for safety. That's part of why I ordered an MS.

Price: This is the primary item for most people. ... Which is why the Prius sells a lot, even though many people dislike the looks.

I don't think so. The Prius sells for a bit more than a similar ICE car.

Telsa is relying on lower fuel and maintenance costs to target the Corolla and Camry owners.

If so, I'd guess that the M3 will make only a small dent in Prius sales. Because their owners would need to drive a lot more than they do to make up for the difference in intial costs. I think most of Tesla's sales to Prius owners is motivated by other considerations. Keep in mind that there are quite a few MS owners whose previous car was a Prius. IMO, well under 1% of those MS buyers will save money by getting an MS instead of a new Prius.

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