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Tesla, I love one-pedal driving. But...can we have a wider coasting window before regen onset ?

Tesla, I love one-pedal driving. But...can we have a wider coasting window before regen onset ?

Tesla, I love one-pedal driving, but can we have a wider coasting window before regen kicks in? "Feathering" the pedal to the point where there's neither power now regen can be done. However, this window is very narrow and it's easy to tip over to regen, losing the coasting momentum if one wants to coast. Feathering involves a careful deliberation of letting up on the pedal to land at this narrow sweet spot, sometimes even requiring the driver to glance at the power meter just to make sure it's there. For many drivers coming from ICE cars, this window is elusive because muscle memory has taught us differently. I believe this will be a greater concern when the mainstream Model 3 becomes available and a large segment of the population gets put off by the sudden onset of regen.

Why not create an option that allows the user to widen this coasting window before regen onset? As the user gets better at one-pedal driving, they can adjust. Some may prefer a wider coasting window altogether to make feathering easier. It also doesn't take anything away from the abiity to induce sudden regen if that's the desired action.

Mollum won't allow me to post a graphic but here's the idea.

Currently:
(REGEN SIDE) -20 -10 |<-narrow coast window->| +10 +20 (POWER SIDE)

Desired:
(REGEN SIDE)-20 -10 |<-adjustable coast window before regen onset->| +10 +20(POWER SIDE)

Chunky Jr. | 2016年2月22日

Sorry, but I don't understand the point of coasting. What is the benefit? Why would you want your momentum lowered by friction and air resistance rather than going into the battery? Or is it more of a comfort thing?

JLC | 2016年2月22日

If tesla does this it better be a setting that can be turned off. I love the way it works now!

logicalthinker | 2016年2月22日

I agree with Chunky.
Intelligent Cruise Control or similar is all you need

buickguy | 2016年2月22日

It took me a few weeks to get the real hang of one pedal driving. Now, when forced to drive an ICE, I keep looking for regen to kick in!

risquared | 2016年2月22日

Well, we don't have true one pedal driving yet. We still need to press the brake pedal at the end of regen braking to stop the car. I wish the car would stop and go into stop-hold mode after the regen braking is exhausted. Stop-hold mode is a feature everyone loves. Why not getting into it automatically. This would be a true one pedsl driving. For some reason Tesla doesn't get it:-(

Mark E | 2016年2月23日

Please don't, and if you do, make it an option I can turn off.
If anything, please give me a more aggressive regen so that I can balance the car even better using the accelerator.

Anthony J. Parisio | 2016年2月23日

I agree with everyone, no coasting for me. However if they put it in as an optional setting that would be fine.

Anthony J. Parisio | 2016年2月23日

Oh and I would like regen to go into stop and hold model for TRUE one pedal driving.

HenryT2 | 2016年2月23日

People still don't seem to realize that coasting is a much more efficient way to preserve kinetic energy than regen. I'd like this option as well. Preferably with a little tactile feedback that tells me when the car is coasting. Maybe a little 'click' when the car begins to coast and a similar but different 'click' when the regen kicks in.

Obviously, this is not going to happen with the number of people out there who don't understand the benefit of coasting.

cpmarino | 2016年2月23日

Aren't there situations in the Tesla where you may be going downhill, and rather than use energy you want to just coast, but the regen makes it so that the vehicle speed is lower than you would like (even though you are going downhill) and thus you are forced to step on the accelerator to increase speed, thus negating any energy savings?

Or am I not understanding how regen works? Obviously it is strong enough to slow the vehicle, but if the hill is steep enough, is it stronger than gravity or will the car still pick up speed AND be on regen?

Tstolz | 2016年2月23日

HenryT2 is correct ... hyper milers know to avoid regen and simply coast to gain efficiecy. That said, I'd ask the OP ... how long have you owned your Tesla? There does appear to be a learning curve to driving smoothly and learning how to coast.

jordanrichard | 2016年2月23日

So, if you are coasting down a long hill, with no regen, then all the electronics in the car that are in use, wipers, headlights, heat/AC are all draining the battery since there is no regen to make up the difference. I am not implying that one's battery will go dead, but if we are talking about "hyper-miling", should that be taken into account in this discussion of doing what is more efficient? You also then have to add the power used when you do have to apply the brakes (electronic booster assist) to curtail your speed.

Seems like a "robbing Peter to pay Paul" scenario.

David Trushin | 2016年2月23日

Most of the people that advocate this method of vehicle operation (coasting) don't realize that maintaining a constant speed using coasting will always use more energy than regen. If you allow gravity to drive the car, then they can't maintain a constant speed. They attribute the "efficiency" of coasting to the fact that regen is a braking action and when they remove their foot from the pedal like they do in an ICE the ICE slows more slowly than the Tesla. They don'realize that driving the Tesla is different and as a result they go throught these annoying cycles of slow down-speed up. The motor in an ICE idles when the pedal is not depressed. The motor in the Tesla is always spinning at the correct rate for your speed. Why waste its kinetic energy by coasting.

steven | 2016年2月23日

If you want coasting, why not put it in neutral?

iTesla | 2016年2月23日

If you had a coasting setting, how would you regen in the deceleration lane for an off ramp?

Son of a Gunn | 2016年2月23日

Missing my point. There's still room for improvement in one-pedal driving. Not everyone wants to "feather". There will be a large number of people who will be unaccustomed to it when Model 3 hits the streets. Tesla can easily implement a user-adjustable setting to widen the space between power and regen, allowing drivers to vary when the regen tipping point occurs. If you want a narrow tipping point, then set it there. Others would prefer to have more pedal space before the onset of regen. ICE drivers have a different muscle memory, why not accommodate that? This can be made into a user-adjustable and variable setting.

AmpedRealtor | 2016年2月23日

Put the gear stalk into Neutral, accomplishes the same thing and without adding potentially confusing functionality.

inconel | 2016年2月23日

Yes small push of the right stalk down puts in Neutral and coasting. Strong push down puts it back to Drive and regen.

inconel | 2016年2月23日

Although if you are coasting in Neutral and see an incoming danger, better have the reflex to go back to Drive before accelerating away...

David Trushin | 2016年2月23日

Incone1, or the police. Coasting is illegal in many places.

DTsea | 2016年2月23日

NOOOOOOOOOOO

DTsea | 2016年2月23日

What OP asks for is a mushy unresponsive pedal. No thanks.

Chunky Jr. | 2016年2月23日

I'd really like someone to explain the physics behind why coasting is better than regen. I may have forgotten a lot since I got my physics degree, but I can't think of a scenario where coasting is better than regen.

Someone in this forum swore that coasting is way better and said they would do an experiment to prove it, and then never posted the result or never followed through. I'm guessing they did the experiment, and it did not turn out the way they expected.

I could be completely wrong here, but I really don't see how coasting provides any benefit over regen. If coasting was so awesome, you'd think that Tesla would build it into their software to increase range.

ir | 2016年2月23日

I should also point out that with torque sleep, coasting can save even more energy. Allowing the car to power down all driving motors. Being able to more consistently hold the accelerator pedal in the coasting position keeps you from accidentally kicking the motors out of sleep.

Son of a Gunn | 2016年2月23日

Missing my point once more. My argument isn't about whether coasting is better than regen. I don't care about it. What I care about is "driving feel". When a driver let's up on the pedal, it's easy to tip over into the regen area and lurch the car down. It's like throwing a boat anchor to a moving boat. Some of you may say just learn to "feather", but many drivers have muscle memory only for pressing, not feathering up. Furthermore, the window between power and regen onset is too "narrow" to be able to consistently feather the pedal down to the zero spot. With a software tweak, Tesla can build a user-adjustable option to widen the space between power and regen onset. At its widest setting, regen onset can be delayed allowing a wider window to feather the pedal in coast. If the regen is desired, just let up more. I'm concerned that when the Model 3 is delivered there will be thousands of drivers put off by the boat anchor driving feel unless there's a way to transitionally adjust the regen onset.

NKYTA | 2016年2月23日

Chunky, it was Robert (in Sweden I think) that was an avid hypermiler.

Say you are at X elevation and you take two tries. 1) you (safely) coast down the elevation and run out on the flat as far as you can go without expending power (coast). 2) you regen down, gain some energy and then use some of that energy to go as far as #1. Which wins?

In normal practice, I think TM has a good balance already. I'm not a hypermiler and I do try to minimize regen lurches for passengers (da wife). We had a bit more regen in earlier firmware releases, so I'd love to see that come back, as Zap advocates.

All that said, after three+ years with fethering the Go Pedal - it works for me.

AoneOne | 2016年2月23日

With regen, you store the excess energy in the battery. There's lost energy generating the electricity, converting it to chemical energy in the battery, converting it back to electrical energy, and converting it back to mechanical energy in the drive train. Some have estimated the net efficiency as 80% * 80% or 64%.

With coasting, you store the excess energy in the additional kinetic energy (due to the increased speed). That increased energy is lost through rolling resistance and aerodynamic resistance.

My sense is that, for a modest speed increase, coasting is more efficient, but if you speed up too much, the quadratic aerodynamic resistance loss will eventually be greater than the regen loss.

Try coasting on a level (private) road: you'll see that the car maintains its speed very, very, well. It feels nearly frictionless at modest speeds, where coasting is most effective.

KL | 2016年2月23日

Hells no. The existing sensitivity is great. I don't want low sensitivity mode when I can control the car so well right now. :)

buchholtz3 | 2016年2月23日

I want the regen. If you want coasting, please get in your ICE or put your Tesla in neutral and don't ask EM to put in a feature it sounds like 98.8% of us don't want......

mbirnie51 | 2016年2月23日

@ Son-O-Gun: It maybe great for you, but as an owner for 3 years and 65++K miles, I want none of your "improvements", rather I want more stronger regen as I have mastered the proper foot control to coast when needed, but boy do I miss the aggressive regen of yester-year. Give me more regen; and I hope you can learn as I had to. Try setting your regen to the lowest setting and practice-practice-practice. Nothing good comes easily!!

Bighorn | 2016年2月23日

Regen is only better than braking--to suggest it is better than coasting is starting to invoke perpetual motion. You can't capture and create more energy than you derive from regen. Coasting without braking will always win out--think soapbox derby or first year physics.

Mark E | 2016年2月24日

I'm stunned that anyone would claim that coasting offers a better driving experience! Maybe I'm wrong but after 40 years of driving manual transmission performance vehicles I couldn't think of a worse way to set up a vehicle.

Driving a vehicle around corners well involves accelerator control, and coasting involves no control.

Tstolz | 2016年2月24日

it doesn't take long to learn how to feather the pedal and for those having trouble I guess they can select low regen mode to learn.

Bighorn +1

cpmarino | 2016年2月24日

As I patiently wait for the release of the Model 3, it seems like my perception of regen may be off based on this thread. My assumption is that if you push the go pedal, for argument sake, 10cm, the car will accelerate ... and then if I back off down to 5cm, the car will STILL accelerate but obviously accelerate less ... and that it isn't until I fully back off the go pedal that regen kicks in. Are you saying that regen will kick in when I release the pedal back from 10cm to 5cm? Thus, it is a function of backing off (using the same example, from 20cm to 18cm, or 30cm to 20cm or whatever)? Or is there a detente position (making this up, but say 3cm or something) where regen kicks in? To perhaps put it more simply, if I'm driving 130mph and I slightly back off the go pedal, is it a combination of gravity and less propulsion that slows me down to say 110mph or does regen kick in at any speed if you slightly back off the go pedal?

David Trushin | 2016年2月24日

Bighorn, well that's the fallacy wrt coasting.. i believe it can be shown that in an experiment with a reasonable slope followed by a long flat that puttuing the car in neutral and allowing it to freewheel to a stop will use less energy an go farther thann if you allow the car to roll with regen on the same course. However that is not the way a car is driven. A fairer experiment would be to traverse the course at a constant speed and then come to a controlled stop. Then i think the existing design wins every time mainly because the coasting car uses the brake so much. ICE cars maintain an average speed by constantly accelerating and coasting. This speed-up slow-down cycle becomes natural to ICE drivers just as the feathering becomes natural to Tesla drivers who, btw, lofe it for the most part. Adding a coast interval to regen just makes the ride jerkier.

logicalthinker | 2016年2月24日

Tstolz is right: use low regen mode if you desperately need to feel like you are driving an ICE.

Or advance to the future and enjoy the added safety and control of instant regen.

bp | 2016年2月24日

Coasting while on cruise control could help increase range by eliminating the unnecessary regen happening because the software is trying to maintain a constant speed when going downhill.

Since regen only recaptures a portion of the energy, coasting should reduce energy consumption - and having a "range" setting on the cruise control could allow the software to allow a wider range of speeds around the set speed, at least for short periods, and eliminate a lot of the extra regen when travelling up and down small hills or overpasses.

Son of a Gunn | 2016年2月24日

Low regen isn't the same as delaying the onset of regen. The onset of regen is that narrow window when once you let off, regen tips in right away. All I'm asking is to make that window variable/adjustable. It can be immediate, at which point regen tips in just like it does now (independent of normal or low regen setting), or it can be delayed to give the driver more allowance to play between power and regen onset.

Son of a Gunn | 2016年2月24日

@cpmarino regen tips in once you slightly back off. This is the narrow window I speak of. Some say to feather when backing off but that's a delicate movement and when I'm carving roads I don't have time for delicate foot control. It's not a natural feeling pulling up feet ever so delicately just to find that narrow spot before regen onset.

murphyS90D | 2016年2月24日

You need to teach your foot where the "zero" point is located. When I first drove my pre AP car I would turn off cruise control and the car would lurch due to full regen. I eventually learned where the "zero" point was and can now press the accelerator to the correct location and then turn cruise control off. The car does not accelerate or decelerate. Like anything else it takes practice to get it right.

Steve S | 2016年2月24日

No coasting. It's great now.

AoneOne | 2016年2月24日

Why is it so controversial that we have an option to have a range of the pedal dedicated to coasting? Most of us wouldn't use it. That's fine. We'd just not select that option. Others, who think it's better for their driving style or for hypermiling, would select it. We each get what we like.

You can certainly say that "I'd never use that option", and Tesla could consider it's owner's preferences as to the value of any given enhancement, but I'm loathe to call out an idea as unworthy of consideration just because it doesn't appeal to me.

@Son of a Gunn: Have you added your idea to TeslaTap's feature list? Here's one that's similar: http://teslatap.com/questions/more-regen-settings-that-are-easily-adjust...

Son of a Gunn | 2016年2月24日

Thanks @AoneOne. Finally a refreshing voice of reason. Yes, it doesn't take away anything from how it works now. Fear of something different certainly took hold on this thread. There happens to be a silent bloc of users who wishes regen settings were more customizable. High regen, low regen, high regen with delayed onset, low regen with delayed onset, high regen with immediate onset, low regen with immediate onset--it's a 2x2 combination at a minimum, makes everyone happy. It's also not static--vary whatever suits your mood or feathering style.

SUN 2 DRV | 2016年2月24日

More options means more confusion and leads to safety issues when driving in differently configured cars. Simple clean configurations are preferred.

At the same speeds, Coasting is more efficient than Regen. Coasting lets momentum carry the car forward, where as Regen looses energy on the round trip to into the battery and back out.

Dithermaster | 2016年2月24日

Interestingly, the Chevy Bolt can regen to a full stop. That would be a neat trick for the Model S. It would be nice to further reduce friction brake use.

davidahn | 2016年2月24日

I believe there's a psychological reason some of us rebel against feathering: the resistance of the pedal while maintaining speed makes it FEEL like you're using a lot of electricity, and even while slowing, the resistance makes it feel like you're using power.

Having developed range anxiety driving up a mountain, then watching my range increase on the downhill side, at the bottom of which my Wh/mi was the same as driving level (about 310-320), I am a believer in Tesla's regenerative braking. It must be active even when maintaining downhill speed, not just when slowing.

I'm with Mark E, that a perfect slingshot turn (which I have NOT mastered) requires braking going in, then accelerating out; what better way than a single pedal that does both?

davidahn | 2016年2月24日

+1 joehuber: standardization means fewer errors when avoiding an accident means reflexes in milliseconds. As for regenerative braking to a full stop, while it would be nice, I fear that could lead to rear-ending accidents from primarily Tesla drivers when using a spouse's or friend's ICE vehicle. But I admit that's a theoretical fear.

Son of a Gunn | 2016年2月24日

@joehuber Subjective and I totally disagree with that. The car is a rolling bed of options. For TACC there are 7 settings, for Steering there are 3, for Emergency Alert there are 4, for Summon a nice new superset of options called Customize. Poor old regen gets 2. The cognitive load is easier when the setting is adjustable by the driver.

carlk | 2016年2月24日

In theory the regen should be set at the strongest anyone would ever need. One can always use the foot to do whatever he wants. The problem is of course some can feather the pedal better, or worse, than others to get what he wants. Tesla can only set it at the best compromise for everyone which some might feel is too strong while others might feel not strong enough. You just need to get used to it. After two years of training it has becoming my second natual to use it in any situations including "coasting" (you can watch the energy meter) with my foot lightly pressed on the pedal. And I agree with @joehuber too many choices would only confuse people and create even more problems.

Son of a Gunn | 2016年2月24日

The Volkswagen e-Golf repurposed the stick shift for dynamic regen. The driver can bump it + or - at any time while driving. Analogous to a strong downshift if one desires or coasting on tall gears. This is not coasting on neutral. It's the ability to stay on overdrive or downshift. A quick regen onset kills the overdrive moment. Again, this isn't about modifying the intensity of regen--it's adding an adjustment for when regen tips in.

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