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Performance 0 - 60 time

Performance 0 - 60 time

I will be looking at getting the performance model with ludicrous mode on the 3. I know final specs aren't available, but I was wondering what everyone thought the 0 - 60 time will be. I've read everything from high 3s to mid 4s. Maybe someone with an engineering background can take a stab at it.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年4月28日

I expect: Sub-5s, sub-4s, and sub-3s.

david.jones24 | 2016年4月28日

Sub 3s? As in similar numbers to the model X? That would be insanely fast. I really can't wait for the car. I'm in the deep south, and I ordered on April 1st. I'm hoping to get the car in 2018, but we'll see. Hopefully ordering a highly optioned model helps.

Red, what do you think the kWh capacities will be? I've read 55 on the base model, but that seems low to me.

lph | 2016年4月28日

It would not surprise me that the M3 would be about as quick as the MX.
But we will just have to wait and see.

slasher0016 | 2016年4月28日

My guess would be base=5.6, P=4.8 L=3.5

Red Sage ca us | 2016年4月29日

david.jones24: Sub-3s as in the 2.7/2.8 for the Model S P90DL, or lower. The Model X P90DL is around 3.2/3.3 seconds to 60 MPH instead. A Model ☰ P100D should be able to thoroughly embarrass just about anything on the market that is available for under $100,000.

It really depends upon whether Tesla Motors wants to go for absolute OVERKILL (as I would) or not. I believe that every iteration of the Tesla Model ☰ should offer Performance that shatters all expectations for the price point it occupies. I also would feel better if the minimum range offered was 225-to-250 miles instead of just scraping past 200 miles on a good day, with perfect weather, while going downhill, in a straight line, with a tailwind.

I would prefer they just offer a single battery pack capacity from the start. Something like a 100 kWh capacity for the Base, Dual Motor All Wheel Drive, and Performance versions of the car. I admit this is highly unlikely.

I would hope they only have two battery packs of perhaps 70 kWh and 100 kWh, or sized at 60 kWh and 90 kWh. Either way, they should be able to manage an EPA rated range of substantially over 200 miles as a minimum, and a bit over 300 miles with maximum capacity.

Recent reports suggest that the League of Lowered Expectations may have won this first round. I figure if the Model ☰ is substantially lighter than I expected, between 3,400 lbs for single motor rear wheel drive and 3,700 lbs for the heaviest battery pack with dual motors and all wheel drive, then the range and performance targets may be met with lower capacity battery packs. I had figured those cars would be more like 3,700 lbs and 4,100 lbs, respectively instead.

jordanrichard | 2016年4月29日

Well, from all the videos from the night of the reveal, many people you are already MS or MX owners, were thoroughly impressed by the acceleration. That says a lot. Keep in mind though, I believe most if not all of the test ride cars were AWD versions.

Hi_Tech | 2016年4月29日

@JordanRichard - Agreed. But also note that Tesla has mentioned the production version will be faster.

@Red Sage - As always, I hope you are right about the battery size (and range), as well as performance. But, I think it'll be close to what @slasher016 stated: 5s, 4s, 3s.

Honestly, I'm expecting that they'll use the Model 3 design for multiple bodies/models. I do think there will be a "overkill" / sports car / Roadster version with something like P100DL option. But, don't expect that out during the 2017 development. Similar thoughts on a CUV version. Those will come, but slightly staggered from the base sedan which comes out in 2017.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年4月29日

To be more specific...

- I expect Sub-6s for the base version of the rear wheel drive car, no matter what.

- I expect Sub-5s to be attained with a dual motor all wheel drive car, even with the lowest capacity battery pack it is offered with.

- I expect Sub-4s for any Performance edition of the car in INSANE mode.

- I expect Sub-3s for a Performance iteration with LUDICROUS engaged.

damonmath | 2016年4月29日

If the weight of the car is less than the MS, and the battery is large enough to pull off the same intense power that drives the P90DL at a similar ratio for the M3, then I could see sub 3 second 0-60 times.

dd.micsol | 2016年4月29日

4.3 will be plenty fast for me. With a reaction time of 1.3 seconds it someone tries to hit me (have this tested every yr) it's not good to be too fast. I know AP will help some, but I don't want to pay for something I'll never ever have the desire to use. If you want to race nascar-go ahead. Leave the streets for safety please.

dachuyn | 2016年4月29日

To firm up the revolution, base M3 should do 60 in 5.5s ...

adoh2010 | 2016年4月29日

Small battery pack RWD: 0-60 in 5.5-5.9s Top speed of 135 Mph.
Small battery pack AWD: 0-60 in 0.2-0.4s faster than RWD Top speed is similar.
Big battery pack AWD: 0-60 in 4.5-4.9s Top speed of 155 Mph.
Performance model: 0-60 in 3.5-3.9s Top speed of 155 Mph.
Ludicrous mode upgrade: 0-60 in 0.3s faster, same top speed.

adoh2010 | 2016年4月29日

While I hope that the exceed my guesses for the performance model, I don't see a way to do it affordably. The model 3 will have a body that's the same weight of the model S due to use of steel, the weight difference will be only from the smaller battery. Aerodynamically speaking however, the model 3 will be much better than the current S which means that it will get a much higher MPGe while not being that much lighter. This all means that the power/weight ratio will be less than an S trim-to-trim but the range will be similar if not better.

david.jones24 | 2016年4月29日

@dd.micsol: Well, I don't think people add the ludicrous upgrade to not "race nascar". I'm sure some folks do race the Model S.

Me personally, I'm not going to go into launch mode at every stop light or anything. I do like having the option of leaving my ICE driving friends in the rear view though.

Sparky | 2016年4月29日

If the big battery AWD car will do 4.5 seconds zero to sixty the only cars that will take me off the line will be other Teslas and I'm absolutely fine with that. Anything quicker than that is only icing on the cake, and ICE cars shrinking in the mirror like pebbles dropped from a bridge.

david.jones24 | 2016年4月29日

Well, the smallest battery pack will be under 6 seconds. Lines up close to the MX high end time. I think for a ludicrous upgrade, it'll need to be in the 3's for folks to want to add the upgrade. I could be wrong, but I think Tesla will have it in the high 3's at least.

inconel | 2016年4月30日

I am hoping Ludicrous will be below 3

Red Sage ca us | 2016年4月30日

dachuyn wrote, "To firm up the revolution, base M3 should do 60 in 5.5s ..."

I was actually hoping for 5.1 to 5.3 until the League of Lowered Expectations provided 'evidence' that suggests the base car will not have a 60 kWh or higher capacity battery pack as I had predicted, but less instead.

adoh2010: You wrote the forbidden words 'I don't see...' Please drop a nickel in the penalty bucket. ;-)

I expect the Model ☰ will be at least 1,000 lbs lighter than a similarly equipped Model S. Otherwise, there is no reason to bring out a new car at all.

The curb weight for the lightest version of the BMW 3-Series is 3,320 lbs, while the heaviest version of the 7-Series is 4,610 lbs.

The AUDI A4 starts at 3,483 lbs. The AUDI A8L is 4,806 lbs.

Mercedes-Benz C-Class is 3,594 lbs. The Mercedes-Benz S-Class is 4,740 lbs.

Lexus IS is 3,583 lbs. Lexus LS 5,115 lbs.

dd.micsol | 2016年4月30日

I think Red is pretty close. Did you factor in that it will be lighter with both motors and overall weight with much lighter battery pack? I'm thinking low 5 sec for single motor
low 4 for dual motor
mid 3 for insane
very high 2 for lud
and mid 2 for warp speed.

dd.micsol | 2016年4月30日

I don't think battery pack will have any bearing on what speed preference you want-except single motor.

bb0tin | 2016年4月30日

@Red Sage ca us
You said " I expect Sub-6s for the base version of the rear wheel drive car, no matter what."
Elon has already stated that the slowest Model 3 will be under 6 seconds.

You said "I would hope they only have two battery packs of perhaps 70 kWh and 100 kWh, or sized at 60 kWh and 90 kWh"
Tesla have already stated that the smallest battery pack will be less that 60kWh

carlk | 2016年4月30日

@Sparky

You are right. People who has never driven a Tesla does not realize how fast off line even a 4 sec EV could get. It will pretty much eat all M's, AMG's and most Porsches alive.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年4月30日

dd.micsol: That will be a nickel for 'I don't think...' You'll find the penalty box to the right.

bb0tin: Meh. Until I see an official spec sheet, blog post, or Elon Musk himself gives a number, I won't believe it. So there! ;-P Childish? Yup!

"What's the point of being grown up if you can't be childish from time to time?" -- Tom Baker as THE 'DOCTOR WHO'

bb0tin | 2016年4月30日

@Red Sage ca us
You said "or Elon Musk himself gives a number"
As I stated above, it was Elon who specified that the slowest Model 3 will be under 6 seconds.

dd.micsol | 2016年5月1日

@bb and red-penalty is over-
Perhaps he meant below 6s he meant 4.9s for single motor?
Or maybe .1 seconds for lud. Like you said red-The Doctor Who. Childish. Children dream and so can adults.
Not attacking you at all here just stating the obvious. Until Elon releases the facts nearly everything posted here is speculation or opinions or guess work. The end.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年5月1日

bb0tin wrote, "Tesla have already stated that the smallest battery pack will be less that 60kWh..."

I replied in protest, partially... "...or Elon Musk himself gives a number..."

bb0tin stated thereafter about SOMETHING THE [FLOCK] ELSE ENTIRELY, "As I stated above, it was Elon who specified that the slowest Model 3 will be under 6 seconds."

It was not Elon that specified what I was speaking of, which is the notion the vehicle would have 'less than' 60 kWh battery pack capacity. [FLOCKINAY]!

georgehawley.fl.us | 2016年5月1日

0-60 in 5.8 seconds (base model)
55 kWh battery pack.

I am never wrong.

Wait a minute. That's incorrect.:-))

bb0tin | 2016年5月1日

@Red Sage ca us
Your statement 'or Elon Musk himself gives a number' was not directed specifically to either of your two statements about 0-60 time or battery capacity. Go back and read your post. You really should make sure of your ground before doing your little jigs to rewrite history. You have a habit of it.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年5月1日

bb0tin: I have already specified the statement was in regard to your statement, "Tesla have already stated that the smallest battery pack will be less that 60kWh"

You attributed that to 'Tesla'... That is not official. It was not said by Elon. I do not acknowledge it. I said as much above. Why in the name of [FLAMING FIG FARTS] would I protest something as not having been said by Elon, when it had? Everyone in this forum has seen the initial unveiling of Model ☰ where Elon mentioned that the base version of the car would achieve 0-60 MPH in less than 6.0 seconds. That is in line with what I have argued in favor of on these forums for over two years now. Several OTHERS have argued in favor of baseline Accord or Camry levels of performance instead -- NOT ME.

Look at YOUR post. Which part of it was NOT said by ELON? DAMN.

Yet you want to accuse ME of editing factual evidence, but can't see the Sequoia sticking out of your eye. Here, maybe you haven't been able to find it... I'll show it to you:

"Tesla have already stated that the smallest battery pack will be less that 60kWh"

There it is! ELON DID NOT [FRAKKING] SAY THAT!!! He. Did. Not.

So, there.

:-P

bb0tin | 2016年5月1日

@Red Sage ca us
This is tedious. Hopefully it is slightly amusing to the audience. I alluded to your propensity to rewrite history but you did not take the hint. You made your criticism of me BEFORE you has specified whether you were talking about 0-60 time or battery capacity. I was quite aware at the time of my post that I had specified ELON for the 0-60 time and TESLA for the battery capacity. It was me wrote it in the first place, and I do take care with what I write. That was why I ONLY responded concerning the 0-60 time.

So once again, go back and read the thread, properly this time. Your mission is to see if you had specified that you were talking about the battery capacity BEFORE I posted "As I stated above, it was Elon who specified that the slowest Model 3 will be under 6 seconds.". Please, please do it.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年5月1日

bb0tin: Yes. You are very tedious. Stop attributing things to ELON that he did NOT say.

bb0tin | 2016年5月2日

@Red Sage ca us
Are you incapable of comprehending? I have twice explained to you that I did not. Read the thread properly.

Sparky | 2016年5月2日

Guys, if I wanted to look in on a kindergarten class I'd take a walk to the school. Can't we get back to optimizing acceleration times, like only charging up to a quarter tank to keep it light off the line?

Hi_Tech | 2016年5月2日

@Sparky - Read somewhere (another thread or comments to an article, not scientific) that having full power in batteries actually provides better acceleration times, than a 1/4 tank would. Something about each cell being limited in it's "power dump" once the power level goes lower. Plus, I'd be curious to know what the weight difference would be for a fully charged Tesla vs almost empty. I doubt the weight difference would be that big. Definitely not at the scale for ICE with gallons of fuel.

yongliangzhu68 | 2016年5月2日

Hi_Tech: Electrons have very little mass so the weight difference between 0% and a 100% charge would probably be in micrograms.

Sparky | 2016年5月2日

If that... :-)

Red Sage ca us | 2016年5月2日

Sparky: The Model ☰, in top Performance trim, will be very, very fast. Which is the same as saying it will NOT be slow. I expect that most, if not all cars that might be faster will cost no less than $300,000 more to buy. I hope for a 300 KPH limit on top speed at worst (instead of 'only' 250 KPH). I suspect 400 KPH will be reserved for Maximum Plaid.

david.jones24 | 2016年5月2日

I wonder if the top end speed will be different from the Model S. Will the difference in battery size come into play there, or could it be faster?

bb0tin | 2016年5月2日

@david.jones24
I expect the quickest Model 3 will be quicker than the quickest S. This is due to lower weight, frontal area and cd. If 'Red Sage ca us' responds that a larger battery pack than the S is required, as he has done before, he is incorrect.

Sparky | 2016年5月2日

Agreed Red Sage. I may have to call mine the "Black Pearl" because, as you say, it will be Very, VERY fast! :-)

inconel | 2016年5月2日

I am in the camp of those hoping for a 2.x 0-60 for the performance model

Red Sage ca us | 2016年5月2日

I have it on good authority that Red Sage has repeatedly stated that Tesla Motors Generation III vehicles would have greater Range and better Performance than Generation II vehicles using a given capacity of battery pack. In times past he has only noted a certain lust for higher capacity battery packs due to the measured improvement in battery technology from Generation I to Generation II, and would like to see a similar gain with Generation III if possible. There is no doubt that he is ecstatic that the League of Lowered Expectations has been flummoxed in that no version of the Tesla Model ☰ will amount to being an electric Toyota Camry.

Sparky: For inspiration...

"'It’s the wild colour scheme that freaks me out,' said Zaphod, whose love affair with the ship had lasted almost three minutes into the flight. 'Every time you try and operate these weird black controls that are labeled in black on a black background, a little black light lights up in black to let you know you’ve done it.'" -- Zaphod Beeblebrox, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' by Douglas Adams

mos6507 | 2016年5月2日

Isn't the single gear the main limiting factor on top speed? The roadster experimented with the two-speed gearbox and had to eventually abandon it. I think the battery packs would support going faster but the single-speed gearbox just maxes out RPMs.

I suspect Tesla will find some new way to implement a new two-gear transmission for Roadster 2.0 that won't break. Then it will be able to beat supercars in the 1/4 mile and not just 0-60.

bb0tin | 2016年5月2日

@Red Sage ca us
Please refer to your posts in the following two threads.
https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/top-0-60-time
https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/potential-performance

You kept stating that a bigger capacity was required for better performance. I spent considerable time trying to explain to you why your understanding was incorrect.

Here is a sample quote from you:
"It all has to do with battery pack capacity. The higher the capacity, the more power can be supplied to the motors. If a Model S P90D can do 2.8 seconds to 60 MPH, then a Model ☰ P100D, P120D, or P135D would do so in 2.5 seconds or less. And that would still be Ludicrous Mode. When Maximum Plaid arrives for the Model R, it will be much, much quicker. If the maximum battery pack capacity is 80 kWh or less, then the Model ☰ is unlikely to achieve the mark below the 3.0-to-3.5 second range."

You are not only now denying that you said such a thing, but have changed your expected performance from being 3.0-3.5 seconds only if the capacity is 80kWh+, to stating sub-3s without a capacity specified. It seems that you have indeed learnt the lesson, but are pretending that you didn't need to learn it.

PS:
You did a similar thing with your prognostications about the expected Model 3 reservations. You lowballed the numbers and then later tried to claim that you expected the high number of reservations. Doing this sort of thing once is carelessness, but doing it repeatedly is revisionist dishonesty.

PPS:
You also falsely claimed, on this thread, that I had misrepresented what Elon stated. I quote "Stop attributing things to ELON that he did NOT say."
I expect you have finally realised that I did no such thing. A retraction would have been nice, an apology even better.

Sparky | 2016年5月2日

Excellent Red Sage. I love it! A black lit light on a black background; the perfect confirmation of black ops performance.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年5月2日

mos6507 asked, "Isn't the single gear the main limiting factor on top speed?"

Depends upon your point of view. The car could be geared differently, to reach a higher theoretical top speed, but wind resistance is still there. The battery pack could be set up differently, to provide more energy sooner, but range would suffer drastically. I rather prefer a balanced approach, that defeats all comers at street legal speeds, while still being rather impressive at pseudo-legal levels. At some point though, the 'sweet spot' for Performance and Range will advance beyond current limitations so that acceleration in any situation from zero to maximum will be unmatched for electric cars from Tesla Motors.

bb0tin | 2016年5月2日

@Red Sage ca us
Please provide your source of knowledge for your statement "The battery pack could be set up differently, to provide more energy sooner, but range would suffer drastically". I am unaware of such a limitation and would be interested in learning.

otto.olsen | 2016年5月3日

Yes, after the more kWh = more instantaneous power episode, the more energy sooner seems interesting too :-)

topher | 2016年5月3日

"I'd be curious to know what the weight difference would be for a fully charged Tesla vs almost empty."

Oddly enough there is an equation for that: M = E/C².
70 kWh * 3.6x10^6 joules/kWh / (3x10^8)² m²/s² = 2.8x10^-6 grams = 2.8 micrograms.

Thank you kindly.

yongliangzhu68 | 2016年5月3日

gopher: Thanks, looks like my 'wild' half educated guess of: "Electrons have very little mass so the weight difference between 0% and a 100% charge would probably be in micrograms." was correct. Thanks for running the numbers.:)

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