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Today's Business Headline "BMW just released its plan to take on Tesla"

Today's Business Headline "BMW just released its plan to take on Tesla"

well, at least BMW is doing something, I mean they have two current BEV's. Given the dates they mention (into the 2020's)I get the impression they have not been doing much in the way of research/improvements since the release of their current offerings.
Is it me or is everyone 10 years behind Tesla?

Red Sage ca us | 2016年8月11日

Well... I think that Nissan is 10 years behind Tesla Motors. Everyone else is 15 years behind Nissan.

Mathew98 | 2016年8月11日

A dollar short and a day or two late...

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/bmw-waitordrive-commercials-focuse...

To regurgitate what's been said earlier, BMW have 2 hybrids, not BEV on the market. One of which is impotent without the Rex engine option.

Silver2K | 2016年8月11日

Red Sage ca us

you really think Chevy is behind Nissan? I think Chevy is directly behind Tesla at this time. The only thing they lack is an infrastructure for long distance driving with the Bolt. If I were GM I would add supercharger type tech to the bolt and put up supercharger type units at their dealerships to start. They can also negotiate with Tesla and use a similar connector and use superchargers across the country like anyone else can as per Elon.

Keep in mind, the other manufacturers don't need a network, they can use the existing supercharger network as per Elon. He has said this many times

Mathew98 | 2016年8月11日

Too late to negotiate withe Tesla to use the proprietary connector. Bolt would have needed to have an on board charger that can get that clean handshake with the Supercharging stall.

Mathew98 | 2016年8月11日

Other brands can leverage the existing SC network if they designed their EV with the onboard charger and handshake protocol. Of course they will have to pay for the predetermined one time access fee per vehicle.

They are not retro active by any means.

Silver2K | 2016年8月11日

Mathew98

it will cost more in redesign, manufacturing and parts, but they will increase their profits when sales go up. After all, the cars are not built yet.

Silver2K | 2016年8月11日

Mathew98

you're right, but it would benefit them greatly. don't you think?

Mathew98 | 2016年8月11日

@Silver - GM is aiming to start selling the Bolt this year. There's zero chance they will go back to the drawing board to allow for any changes at this point.

It would be a smart choice for the existing ICEV brands to take advantage of Elon's generous offer. Why reinvent the wheel or the SC network? But these legacy folks are a stubborn bunch.

Silver2K | 2016年8月11日

Mathew98

I would love to see everyone jump in. All manufacturers paying their share to expand the network would drive down the cost on Tesla sales to start. That type of co-existence would kill gas within 10 years imo.

carlk | 2016年8月11日

Everyone is behind Tesla and will be behind Tesla forever when it does not have a plan for high volume low cost battery and charging infrastructure. The fact none of them are talking about them means they are either too dumb or they are not serious. You can take your pick for each.

EVRider | 2016年8月11日

BMW has one pure BEV on the market, the i3 without the range extender. There's no BEV version of the i8. I'm not sure why Matthew thinks the i3 without REx is "impotent" -- it's no Tesla, but it has a range of 75-80 miles. The 2017 i3 will have a larger battery with 114-mile range (the current battery will still be available).

Mathew98 | 2016年8月11日

I stand corrected. The i3 is impotent with Rex engaged.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/10/10/bmw-i3-acceleration-problem-consumer-...

Nexxus | 2016年8月11日

@SilverP85plus,

I'm not sure if the GM Bolt will be able to quick charge or not. Has GM released any specs on how fast the battery can re-charge? The Bolt might not be able to handle all the 125kW the SC's can deliver so using them might be a moot point.

Silver2K | 2016年8月11日

@go

That's why I mentioned

"If I were GM I would add supercharger type tech to the bolt"

@carlk

Personally I think Elon's goal is to be the biggest supplier of battery packs to the auto industry. I know they are working on other vehicles, but I think Tesla Motors is just a stepping stone to his ultimate goal.

jordanrichard | 2016年8月11日

Can any of these other EVs replace a family's primary car? I am guessing not.

Silver2K | 2016年8月11日

Although I think the bolt looks stupid and cheap (to put it mildly), I think it can be a family car locally.

jordanrichard | 2016年8月11日

"Although I think the bolt looks stupid and cheap (to put it mildly), I think it can be a family car locally", yes if one lived CA.

GM said they were initially only going to sell the Bolt in CA.

Seems rather ironic that GM patted themselves on the back for being the first car company to produce a 200 miles EV for the masses, yet won't let the masses outside of CA buy it.

Rocky_H | 2016年8月11日

I know it's good that other companies are making electric cars, etc., etc., but I am looking forward to some of the public's reaction in the next several years. Media has been saying that Tesla just has this window while other companies don't have their long range electric cars out yet, but once they do, Tesla is in trouble. It's going to be...interesting...when some other 200+ mile EVs are on the market, and the public complaints start showing up about how they still can't travel with it very well because of no Supercharger network.

David N | 2016年8月11日

Other than an increase in range and a redesign, is the Bolt much different from the volt?
If you can't do a fast/quick charge to enable long distance travel than its still just a commuter car. Am I missing something ?

David N | 2016年8月11日

"Red Sage ca us | August 11, 2016
Well... I think that Nissan is 10 years behind Tesla Motors. Everyone else is 15 years behind Nissan"

+1

carlk | 2016年8月11日

Nissan is the only company I think was at lease somewhat serious about EV from the beginning. The rest were just not, and still are not, serious.

EVRider | 2016年8月11日

@Matthew: The i3 with REx is slower than the i3 BEV even when REx isn't engaged, about a second slower from 0-60. I knew that when the battery gets low enough for the REx to engage, there's a reduction in power, but nothing like what was in the article you cited.

@Rocky: By the time other car companies reach the point where they compete with Tesla, Tesla will probably be making more money from home energy storage than cars. If other car companies never reach that point, Elon will have failed in his mission to push sustainable transport.

KP in NPT | 2016年8月11日

All these manufacturers trying to come up with the Tesla killer - it's like watching it in slo-mo. It reminds me of those scene from Austin Powers. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLlUgilKqms

dansplans | 2016年8月11日

That i3 problem is ancient history.

carlk | 2016年8月11日

@RoofLess

Elon's strategy is to give other manufacturers no excuses to not go all in to switch to EV. They are not doing it yet Elon just need to tighten the screw even more.

Silver2K | 2016年8月11日

carlk

how is GM not serious? they've put out more electric (3 not pure but electric) car models than anyone.

2xvolts (electric first)
elr (electric first)
sparq
bolt in 2017

Nissan has not done that or anyone else for that matter

Silver2K | 2016年8月11日

lets not forget the crushed ev1's

carlk | 2016年8月11日

@SilverP85plus

There is a big difference between serious about making an EV and serious about making the EV transition. Bolt is mostly a compliance car and good PR for GM plus it has a remote possibility that it will hurt Tesla and slows down the EV transition. GM never wanted to make it a major product line or making a profit out of it. It has planed for only 20~30K a year production I believe. A number that will create scarcity, that's before the M3 annoucement of course, and not to affect GM and dealers bottom lines too much.

Silver2K | 2016年8月11日

carlk

I get your points and extremely valid, but the M3 orders are going to change GM's mind on production. It will be easier for them than anyone else to produce electric cars (and Nissan) because they have dumped lots of cash in the tech and production lines are in place. the others are wayyyy behind!

Mathew98 | 2016年8月11日

@Silver - GM is not serious precisely because they crushed the EV1 fleet despite the overwhelming support of the leasees.

Volts - hybrid. 12K units sold this year, quite impressive.

ELR - much expensive sheepskin for the same hybrid. A whopping 511 units sold all year. The buyers have spoken.

Spark EV - Ok first compliance vehicle only sold in CA initially in 2013 (100/mth). YTD = 2,112 units.

Bolt EV - Coming soon to CA only as another compliance car.
http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

The MS had outsold all the Chevy EV/hybrid offerings combined, despite being 2x to 5x more expensive. There's reason being the statistics.

If GM really wanted to go electric, they can. But they chose to go the hybrid route as a stop gap measure.

Ross1 | 2016年8月11日

Comments are saying an EV is not competitive if it is not as quick.
Most buyers IMO wouldn't care about that. 0-60 in 10 secs is OK for most? And who's wife would judge a car on its acceleration. It is of academic interest to her because it is part of the disruptive strategy.

Competitive:
Try ease of filling with 'energy' seat comfort, door access, step height, cost of servicing, ability to serrvice/ repair locally, length of warranty, size, cargo space, 2nd row folders, is it a monster when what is reqd is a shopping cart?

My wife does a spread sheet to analyse a car purchase, regardless of what the seat of my pants tells me.
When and only when we are ready financially and emotionally ready to buy.
I have never seen acceleration/quickness or top speed on the spreadsheet.

Silver2K | 2016年8月11日

I think they're serious but the public does not see them as anything besides what they've always been.

Personally I think what draws people to Tesla (excluding what we know as researchers of technology) is the name. The name is sexy and sounds electric because of association (obviously intended by Elon). All the people I spoke to at the Syracuse nationals for 14 hrs! knew nothing at all about it's safety. The ones that placed an order for the model 3 (2) knew nothing about Tesla's safety record, they just knew about AP. Half of them didn't even know it was made in America and these people are car enthusiasts at the show speaking to me.

I had a vendor at the farmers market (mentioned a while back) run a block screaming at me HEY HEY HEY!! IS THAT A TESLA!?!?!!?... before she screamed it out no one saw my car, afterwards my car was surrounded by a bunch of people and all my wife can do is laugh while everyone was looking inside the car.

That name Tesla makes heads turn, chevy does not

SamO | 2016年8月11日

VW looks like it has a chance to survive the "nazi death waggon" moniker this second time 'round when you account for the latest diesel kerfuffle.

They are balls deep into EVs and know that's their only chance at survival. And they can cut the diesel engineering/design/employee count without conscience.

Nissan . . .lol

Chevy/Lyft . . . potential

Ford . . . quietly sad

Honda . . . dead man walking

Toyota . . . hydrogen . . .argh the humanity

Uber . . . better buy an automaker

Al1 | 2016年8月11日

There was nothing sexy in the name Tesla just a few years ago. It is products that make names sexy.

BMW was a sexy name. Until they came up with i3.

jordanrichard | 2016年8月11日

An EV from any other car company is not competitive if it can't do anywhere near the stuff that a Tesla can do. I am not talking about AP, or summons. The primary thing a Tesla can do is be driven across country with relative little down time for charging. A Tesla, even the M≡ can replace a family's primary car. A Bolt, a Leaf or an i3, can not.

lar_lef | 2016年8月11日

There are millions of buyers out there. Some will prefer each company's models for their own reasons. As long as the whole plug-in wave grows, what's to worry?

Red Sage ca us | 2016年8月11日

SilverP85plus: Yes. Chevrolet, General Motors as a whole, is woefully behind Nissan. Their last two fully electric cars were built and designed by Korean companies. Both the Chevrolet Spark EV and the upcoming BOLT are entirely of Korean design and manufacture. At least Nissan/Renault build their own [STUFF].

Red Sage ca us | 2016年8月11日

SilverP85plus: Elon Musk has already told you that the goal was to offer the GIGAFACTORY as a product -- not the battery cells themselves. If someone is seriously interested in manufacturing long range fully electric cars in mass, Tesla Motors can build them a Gigafactory that combines battery production and vehicle production under the same roof. Tesla Motors' own production of battery cells will be taken up by their cars and stationary storage projects. There won't be anything left over to sell to anyone else. And Tesla Motors will not allow any of their technology to be used with Hybrids or in Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles. Tesla's days of being a 'supplier' are over and done with.

General Motors is no more serious than they have to be. They have claimed the BOLT will cover 200 miles range, they have stated it will have a 60 kWh battery pack capacity. That should be enough to get the car to 225-to-250 miles of range. What happens if it is only EPA rated at around 180 miles range instead? They have decided to offer the BOLT in a single territory, the United States of America, and initially only within one State, California, and said they will be building around 30,000 units per year. That means they will just match the best level that the Nissan LEAF already reached a couple of years ago for annual sales in the US alone. But the LEAF is available in multiple territories, and RENAULT also offers multiple electric vehicles. Meanwhile the Chevrolet VOLT has been available just as long, but has never sold over 25,000 units in a single year, and likewise is not available in any other territory. The Cadillac ELR was a joke, not just because it was offered at a $35,000 premium over the VOLT, but also because it was priced at a $40,000 premium over the ATS Coupe. The Spark EV again is from a Korean manufacturer, farmed out, not a Chevrolet product, a compliance car for CARB States alone. None of this represents a 'serious' position.

dansplans | 2016年8月12日

"All-electric Chevy Bolt to be sold in all 50 US states, GM says"

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/all-electric-chevy-bolt-sold-all-50-us-st...

Mathew98 | 2016年8月12日

Yes, @dan, it is now.

Silver2K | 2016年8月12日

Red Sage ca us

I'm not going to argue about GM vs Tesla. I'll just leave it at that.

As for the gigafactory, I believe (just an assumption judging by Elon's track record) Tesla motors will be sold and the gigafactory will be producing batteries for everyone. Elon's track record has shown when he establishes a business he moves on. He may also sell (again assumption) everything Tesla motors and keep SpaceX until he gets to mars and sell that also.

Mathew98 | 2016年8月12日

@Silver - I see where your assumption came from. It's hard to argue that a young Musk sold his previous companies to make money. But if you had read his bio, the profits from his early successes were rolled into his ultimate vision of sustainable transport (now sustainable energy).

With his latest trios of companies satisfying his vision, there really aren't any incentives for Musk to sell any of this empire. If making billions was his objective, he would have brought SpaceX public and make many tens of billion$ now.

Rocky_H | 2016年8月12日

@David N, Quote: "Other than an increase in range and a redesign, is the Bolt much different from the volt?
If you can't do a fast/quick charge to enable long distance travel than its still just a commuter car. Am I missing something ?"

Yes, you are missing something. The Bolt is actually LESS capable than the Volt. The Volt can be a family's only vehicle, can travel cross country, and doesn't have to be just a commuter car. So don't say "still" just a commuter car. The Bolt is quite limited that way, while the Volt isn't. I really wish that GM would have promoted the Volt more, because it does have the capability to move most of people's driving off of gasoline, and that would be a good step for people who are too scared to go electric-only and can't afford a Tesla yet (most people).

Mathew98 | 2016年8月12日

Their marketing ploy for the Volt is "1,000 miles between fill ups."

Silver2K | 2016年8月12日

Mathews

I get why he sold the previous businesses to pile up cash for his ultimate goal. But this doesn't mean he will hold on to the business he creates. His goal is to get is there.

I see him saying I've done what I've set out to do and now I need to move onto my next new goal. He's way too young to stop. I think he will join gates as a philanthropist or continue what gates has started. That's the direction I would like him to move to. Musk would be great at it.

carlk | 2016年8月12日

@Rocky_H

I too think Bolt is a commuter car just like the Leaf is. The only difference is you will be able to drive the Bolt as fast as you want on the freeway and can make an extra stop to pick up the pizza on the way home without having to worry about running out of juice. Without the ability to go long distance will always cripple it to be nothing more than a seconde car. We have becoming a Tesla only family and it worked perfectly. You can never do that with Bolt or Bolts.

@SilverP85plus

Musk will never be like Gates the he would just use the money passively to achieve certain goals. He's too smart and too much of a visionary for not actively involve himself in things he wants to achieve, and he's got a lot in his mind I'm sure. The only reason he wants to cumulate money is to use it as a tool to achieve what he wants to do. He never hesitated to risk it all long as he sees what he always say the clear path to get there. That's one character why I said no CEO in any of those companies could ever compete with him.

Silver2K | 2016年8月12日

carlk

you do know Gates is trying to eradicate malaria right? He's also trying to re-invent the toilet.

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2082509,00.html

I guess saving lives by trying to wipeout diseases is not smart and lacks vision.

There is no better human on the planet than Gates.

David N | 2016年8月12日

Rocky H, you are correct, my mind must have been in EV mode and forgot about the ICE in the Volt. Thank you for catching that.
So, as you stated, the Volt is actually more capable of long distance travel than the highly touted soon to be released Bolt. Looks like the Bolt will be a long distance commuter car.

jordanrichard | 2016年8月14日

dansplans, The Bolt will be available in all 50 states, but not until after they sell in CA first. GM said that the first Bolts are going to CA. They didn't specify how many will have to be sold in CA before the rest of the country gets it, but make no mistake, the Bolt is going straight to CA expressly for the purpose of complying with a regulation.

GM also has said they expect to sell 30,000 Bolts a year. So they spent however many millions of dollars to develop a BEV that they expect to sell only 30,000 cars, but stopped making the Firebird because it only sole about 32,000 cars a year.

The Bolt is nothing more than a big PR stunt.

Dwdnjck@ca | 2016年8月14日

True.

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