Lazy journalism in Quartz Chevy Bolt article

Lazy journalism in Quartz Chevy Bolt article

Going to try and link to it: qz dot com/785707/the-chevy-bolt-will-cost-more-and-is-uglier-than-a-tesla-model-3-but-youll-actually-be-able-to-get-one/

Anyway in it the write claims that the M3 has a max range of 215 (instead of min). Makes no effort to determine where Chevy will be selling
them. With Tesla you know the M3 will be available globally.

It goes on...

stevenmaifert | 2016年9月20日

Until the base M3 undergoes the EPA testing, any statement of range (min or max) is just an estimate. Tesla was advertising an estimated 300 mile range for the S85 right up to and beyond first deliveries. The EPA range turned out to be 265. GM advertised an estimated range for the Bolt of ~200 miles. The EPA range turned out to be 238. Until the M3 undergoes the EPA test, any comparison of Tesla's estimate and any other EPA range certified BEV is meaningless.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月20日

stevenmaifert: What Tesla Motors ~*ahem*~ 'advertised' was 300 miles at a constant 55 MPH. The Model S 85 was indeed capable of doing precisely that. Tesla Motors' mistake was in presuming the Model S would be tested on the older 2-Cycle EPA range test, when it was actually required to be examined under the newer 5-Cycle EPA range test. I file that under 'Oops.' as opposed to being a blatant attempt to deceive, as your repeated posts of the exact same argument seem to imply.

stevenmaifert | 2016年9月20日

Red - Actually it was 60 mph. I'll post the archived link if you'd like. Not saying Tesla was intentionally misrepresenting the max range of the S85, just pointing out it wasn't an "EPA certified" range which you really need to make fair comparisons, particularly between the M3 and the Bolt.

jordanrichard | 2016年9月20日

Red Sage +1,000

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月20日

I've heard Elon Musk say 55 MPH.

Badbot | 2016年9月20日

stevenmaifert | September 20, 2016
Until the base M3 undergoes the EPA testing, any statement of range (min or max) is just an estimate."

After EPA tests you get the EPA official estimate.

stevenmaifert | 2016年9月20日

Here is the archived Model S Features page as it existed on June 22, 2012; the day the first Model S was delivered: Give it a few moments to load and then scroll down. The page presentation is truncated, but the range estimates are clearly indicated in the battery section. 55 or 60... It really doesn't matter. Heck, the S85 will go over 400 miles if you drive it at 25 mph around the flat lands of central Florida for 24 hrs. Remember the guy and his son who actually did that a few years ago?

As for the things Elon says... Scroll down further on that page and read about the key and how it's programmable for individual drivers. Another Oops?

stevenmaifert | 2016年9月20日

@Badbot - Yes it's an official estimate, but the vehicles are all tested to the same criteria so you have a common basis for comparison.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月21日

stevenmaifert: From the EPA's website...

Detailed Test Information
EPA tests vehicles by running them through a series of driving routines, also called cycles or schedules, that specify vehicle speed for each point in time during the laboratory tests.
For 2007 and earlier model year vehicles, only the city and highway schedules were used. Beginning with 2008 models, three additional tests are used to adjust the city and highway estimates to account for higher speeds, air conditioning use, and colder temperatures.
EPA has established testing criteria for electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids that are slightly different than those for conventional vehicles.

www.fueleconomy DOT gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

www.fueleconomy DOT gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml DOT com/watch?v=oeEy9xqFG_0

stevenmaifert | 2016年9月21日

Red - Sorry, but I'm missing your point. I'm aware the testing cycle for EV/PHEVs is slightly different then that for ICE. Are you suggesting not all EVs are tested to the same 5 cycle test for EVs?

I appreciate you post. It shows that the 5 cycle test was introduced with 2008 models, yet, per your previous post, "Tesla Motors' mistake was in presuming the Model S would be tested on the older 2-Cycle EPA range test" in 2012. Definitely an Oops.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月21日

stevenmaifert wrote, "...the vehicles are all tested to the same criteria..."

"EPA has established testing criteria for electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids that are slightly different than those for conventional vehicles."

That is all.

andy.connor.e | 2016年9月22日

This is only going to effect people who do no research. Only the ones who dont know anything about Tesla are the ones who will have their opinions swayed. Its no real threat to be honest, because Tesla's popularity is spread without the use of any advertising whatsoever. As soon as the real EPA tests come out for the M3, GM will feel the thunder.

EaglesPDX | 2016年9月22日

Everything in the article was correct. Tesla has announced a 215 EPA based ange for the T3. Bolt has tested out at 238 mile range.

Chevy, like Tesla, will concentrate sales in states where EV's sell the most which is also where the most EV infrastructure exists now and where it will be built of fastest going forward.

The Bolt's fast charge capability of 90 miles in 30 minutes with Blink and Chargepoint chargers makes it competitive with the Tesla's 170 miles in 30 minutes on Teslas superchargers.

Wired's reviewer noting the Bolt's "sleek" appeal and good ride and the plus 238 miles Wired got on their 239 mile without recharge test drive bodes well for the Bolt and EV's in general.

Hopefully more mfgs will come out with more EV's so the Tesla Uber Alles online assassination squad can move to another target for the their fear and loathing of EV's. Last weeks was the BMW300e, this weeks the Bolt, new target's emerging daily....which was Tesla's mission statement, get more mfg to build EV's and build out the EV infrastructure.

jordanrichard | 2016年9月22日

EaglesRDX, Tesla tries to sell its car everywhere. They don't concentrate on any one area. Also you need to stop misquoting what Tesla said. Tesla said the Model≡ will have "at least" 215 miles.

You are also continuing to cite the "fast charging" for the Bolt. I am not saying it doesn't exist, but it is not a prevalent as you make it sound. I am going to venture to guess that there are far more Tesla superchargers, avg 8 stalls per location, than there are DC fast chargers in locations convenient for highway travel. Yes Chargepoint and Blink "may" be building more DC fast chargers, but Tesla isn't exactly sitting still with their own chargers. They continue to either expand existing locations or build new sites.

EaglesPDX | 2016年9月22日

@jordanrichard "Tesla tries to sell its car everywhere."

There are many areas in the US that have no Tesla sales or service. Tesla is shipping all it's first T3's only to West Coast while Bolt is targeted for the same area.

The complaints about the Bolt from a small group of Teslerati are a hypocritical double standard we see trotted out every time another EV is discusses. Ironically the same complaints we saw about Tesla from ICE faithful when Tesla first came out.

The Bolt is part of Tesla's mission statement. Anyone who shares Tesla's vision would be applauding the Bolt and waiting to see if they could lease a Bolt while waiting for the T3 to start shipping.

dsvick | 2016年9月22日

EaglesPDX, you must be being deliberately obtuse, I don't think you're as ill-informed as your previous post makes you sound.

@EaglesPDX - "There are many areas in the US that have no Tesla sales or service."

Yep, that's true. It's also true that there are many areas in the US where Tesla wants to have a physical presence but is not allowed. In many of those cases they fighting legal battles in order to be allowed to.

@EaglesPDX - "Tesla is shipping all it's first T3's only to West Coast while Bolt is targeted for the same area."
Yep, that's true too. But each is doing it for completely different reasons. One of them I can applaud and understand (even if I'm not happy about it) while the other strikes me as being overly timid, uncommited, and only half-heartedly trying. Don't get me wrong, I hope the Bolt succeeds, I'm just disappointed at the lack of effort it seems like GM is putting into it.

PaceyWhitter | 2016年9月22日

Did Eagles just Godwin a thread about cars?

Rocky_H | 2016年9月22日

@PaceyWhitter, Quote: "Did Eagles just Godwin a thread about cars?"

And it wasn't even referring to a German car.

brando | 2016年9月22日

reminder: Try out and explore with Range Per Charge estimator then scroll down near the bottom of the page

90 battery ~ 300 miles at anything 60mph or less (homework, see what it takes to get near 400)

jordanrichard | 2016年9月22日

Eagles, I am completely baffled by your hearing problems. No one is criticizing the Bolts existence, it is GM's hyperbole about it and their perceived commitment to EVs, versus the reality. The only thing that people are knocking about the Bolt itself is it's looks, which is obviously subjective and has NOTHING to do with it being an EV.

EaglesPDX | 2016年9月22日

@jordanrichard " I am completely baffled by your hearing problems."

Probably because this is a written medium.

@dsvick " But each is doing it for completely different reasons."

Tesla and Chevy concentrate sales in area of the US, West Coast for example, that have proven track records of EV, hybrid, plug-in sales, EV infrastructure and local governments which promote EV use.

With Bolt producing 30,000 vehicles, concentrating the sales, as Tesla is doing with the T3's initial sales and as Tesla did with its initial TS sales.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月22日

As a longtime Chevrolet fan, I am quite pleased they are offering a 200+ mile electric vehicle. I just kind of seriously wished it looked a lot more like a Corvette or Camaro, and possibly were named 'Chevette' instead of 'BOLT'... I am truly surprised that Honda hasn't chosen to do something cool, like release a long range fully electric car shaped like an S2000 or CR-X.

dsvick | 2016年9月23日

@EaglesPDX - "Tesla and Chevy concentrate sales in area of the US, West Coast for example..."

In what way is Tesla concentrating their sales? People can buy their vehicles anywhere in the country. I'm in Ohio (definitely not a pro EV state) and was quite able to put down a deposit for a Model 3, I bet I could even drive over to their store and buy a Model S or Model X (I'd never get to drive it though since my wife would shoot me). No, they don't have a physical presence everywhere but that isn't their fault. Or are you referring to initial deliveries of the M3? That would be "deliveries", not "sales".

teleresin | 2016年9月23日

It is of concern that there is interest in the product of a much larger manufacturer that can easily move in and potentially disrupt Tesla's efforts by providing a similarly affordable electric car, with a suitable range. Concerning primarily, because history has shown us the gasoline auto manufacturer's intent; to hurt the effort to advance the cause of cleaner cars. And that is their intent – to disrupt Tesla's momentum, precisely because it's share is small but growing, to sustain the market for more profitable SUVs. Should Tesla be unable to compete and falter, what incentive is there to create cleaner cars? For that reason, whatever the range or price or looks, I am – and I hope we all would be – leery. Better, disinterested.

EaglesPDX | 2016年9月23日

@Teleresin "Should Tesla be unable to compete and falter, what incentive is there to create cleaner cars?"

Government requires to get fleets to 54 mpg, pollution regulations, necessity of cutting oil use for global warming, economic and national security issues. That, not Tesla, is why all car mfgs have hybrids and plug ins. GM would have built the Bolt, Tesla or no Tesla.

Getting GM, BMW, Nissan, Ford et all to build low emissions plug ins is the mission of Tesla. Anyone who shares those goals is applauding the Bolt as a step in the right direction. If GM can sell out, it would encourage GM to build 100,000 Bolts and add features (AWD, longer range, towing, etc.),

Rocky_H | 2016年9月23日

@teleresin, Quote: "It is of concern that there is interest in the product of a much larger manufacturer that can easily move in and potentially disrupt Tesla's efforts by providing a similarly affordable electric car, with a suitable range."

First, I contest the premise, and secondly, I really contest the conclusion--that it should be "of concern" or that we should be "leery" or "disinterested".

Part of this is that electric cars are still trying to "get next to the decimal point", as Elon Musk has said. There is still tons of the overall vehicle market available for shifting to electric vehicles. There just haven't been very many good ones before this point in time to make them very attractive.

The Bolt is a far far better version of the dozen or so electric car models that all had about 80 miles of range. It would excel in that use case, but it does not serve the distance travel need very well, because it does not have the Supercharger network. But for a lot of people's use, as one of a couple of cars in the family, that use is fine, so there is room for Bolts and Teslas.

The other flaw in your premise is that you think the large __manufacturer__ is going to be able to come in and disrupt Tesla's efforts. The problem with this is that those manufacturers do not get to sell directly. Independent dealerships still control selling the cars, and their sales staff still aggressively tries to steer people away from electric cars. So even people wanting to buy electric cars would have to fight their way through the misinformation and obstructionism of the sales people at Chevy or Ford or Chrysler dealerships. So that will still hold them back from easily steamrolling Tesla for a while. But there will be some people who will persevere through that because the Bolt will be a pretty good car.

Tesla can't displace a very large portion of the whole auto market by themselves, so other makers participating is a good thing. Also, it does help overall if a bigger variety of capable electric cars gets in front of the public's eyeballs. They need to see that this is a thing.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月23日

Rocky_H: I think that teleresin may have been referring to General Motors' contributing efforts to block Tesla Motors from selling direct in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Connecticut -- in addition to bringing out the BOLT -- as means to 'disrupt Tesla's momentum'. Such delaying tactics won't work to stop Tesla Motors... But any delays can be harmful in the short term.

JeffreyR | 2016年9月23日

Sierra Club launches "Rev Up EVs"


To learn more about what is working well and what could be improved in the plug-in electric vehicle (EV)1 marketplace, the Sierra Club launched Rev Up EVs—the rst-ever multi-state investigation into the consumer EV shopping experience. Based on surveys from Sierra Club volunteers who called or visited 308 different auto dealerships and stores across ten states to inquire about EVs, we found that there is tremendous room for improvement among the dealerships and the automakers.

EaglesPDX | 2016年9月23日

Interesting that Ford and Chevy sold 23,000 EV's this year to date vs. Tesla's 19,000. Per Tesla's mission statement, that is progress.

We really need stronger government regulations with specific requirements to speed up the conversion to EV. Requiring an increasing percentage of EV's (or zero emissions) per year so that we get to 100% by 2050.

Also more government subsidized build out of the infrastructure and requiring standardization so any EV can use any charger including Tesla's superchargers.

SamO | 2016年9月23日

And a chicken in every pot. Someone give me a baby to kiss.

Free chargers for everyone.


EaglesPDX | 2016年9月24日

@dsvick "In what way is Tesla concentrating their sales?"

First sales of T3 are to West Coast customers. This is to keep the first cars closer to service areas, same thing Chevy is doing with Bolt, only to areas of high concentration of service and EV infrastructure and, in many cases, subsidies for EV purchase.

In the area of building out EV infrastructure, the Bolt with its industry standard fast charging and creating a market for third party businesses such as Blink and Chargepoint, does more for the expansion of a EV infrastructure than does Tesla with its SuperCharger system limited to Teslas.

I'd guess the utilization rate of the Tesla superchargers is very low and it doesn't encourage other EV's.

jordanrichard | 2016年9月24日

EaglesPDX, It has been recently revealed that the Bolt is not going just to CA. I personally spoke with a Chevy salesman from Western MA and he told me that the Bolts are initially going to 8 states. Just like the MB EV B-Class and the VW E-Golf. Also the other reason the Model ≡ is first being delivered to the West coast is simply due to the logistics of getting the car to the customers faster.

Chevy is building the Bolt in MI, but sending it out to other states first.

Also, don't present Tesla's superchargers as some type of elitist charging network. Tesla has offered the use of the supercharger network to other companies, they just choose to not take advantage of the offer and conditions.

EaglesPDX | 2016年9月25日

@jordanrichard "EaglesPDX, It has been recently revealed that the Bolt is not going just to CA. I personally spoke with a Chevy salesman from Western MA and he told me that the Bolts are initially going to 8 states."

Actually that was announced when the car was announced so you are late to the game with the "news".

Bolt is doing what makes sense selling the cars in states that promote EV's, have customer base with sales history of buying EV's and have building EV infrastructure. Same thing Tesla did and still does.

Tesla is shipping the T3 to West Coast first for all the same good reasons.

Additionally with the Bolt, since it will promote the build out of fast charging systems from Blink and Chargepoint, by concentrating sales on those states it helps support Blink and Chargepoints build up by providing a concentrated customer base.

bmalloy0 | 2016年9月25日

Tesla is shipping to West Coast first because thats where the factory/HQ is and turnaround time on early defects will be lowest there. Not because of EV promotion. Granted, they may be located there due to EV promotion, but I believe I saw EM state that West Coast was getting deliveries first for fast turnaround on any possible defects.

TASANB | 2016年9月29日

A few thoughts. I realize these are mostly repeats.

As long as the Bolt doesn't share the same fate as the EV1 (certainly doesn't sound like it), it's a monumental step forward for GM, and the EV community at large. This combined with the ever growing list of manufacturers committed and developing EV model or lines (BMW, VW, Merccedes, Ford, etc.) is clear evidence of the monumental effect Tesla has and continues to have on the automotive industry. In other words, Tesla mission achieved.

A better argument from Chevy/GM would be that the Bolt [probably] has a greater range at the current price point. If the current estimates in range and price from Tesla are accurate, consumers will likely have to pay more than the starting price of a Bolt for a Model 3 with greater than 238 miles range.

If those figures were conservative (my fingers are crossed), that claim would be disproved. This ignores the potential for dealership markups on the Bolt. Does anyone have any info on that? I haven't done any research myself.

For me the decision comes down to person brand experience, and value. I've never been impressed by a GM product other than the Corvette (outlier). The current advertising blitz citing recently acquired awards aside, I don't anticipate rapid change from GM. I'm hopeful the Bolt will be better, but not enough that I'm willing to buy one over the Model 3. Also, other than being a EV, the Bolt would never sell at the $35K+ price point. $25K would probably be a stretch if it was ICE. The Model 3 on the other hand (IMO) would definitely sell at the same price point as an ICE.

I don't expect more than a very small % of Model 3 reservation holders to be swayed by the subject article or others like it. It certainly didn't affect me.

dave.m.mcdonough | 2016年10月1日

There's an increasing number of these "articles" pushing the Bolt, and drawing comparisons about range and stuff in a false parallel. And of course not mentioning that the Bolt is FWD and worse all-around car. GM is spending their advertising budget in smart ways.
The 3 should have no trouble stomping it all apart when it's finally released.

KP in NPT | 2016年10月1日

I look forward to reports of Bolt real world miles (especially highway) given the drag coefficient.

But I don't care about Tesla stomping it. They are completely different cars, despite having similar base prices. It will be a good fit for some people, and more EVs on the road are good.

I just wish they'd made more of an effort in the design. But I guess it looks typical for a GM car, so I shouldn't be surprised. Actually, given the level of interested the Model 3 has garnered, and the amount of reservations, you'd think all car companies would step up the design their BEV offerings. I'm sure shareholders of these companies would love to see the reservations Tesla has.

EaglesPDX | 2016年10月1日

@mp1156 "Actually, given the level of interested the Model 3 has garnered, and the amount of reservations, you'd think all car companies would step up the design their BEV offerings."

Ford Fusion looks great, Volt looks great. BMW300e looks great. The one Tesla to rule them all design ideology is limiting. Tesla going back to the drawing board after customer requests to make the T3 more practical, adding the hatchback, adding towing demonstrates it. The Bolt, Leaf Cmax are different designs for different markets.

It would have been better if Tesla had made the T3 more of station wagon/SUV for kids, cargo, towing etc.

The original TS design was OK to make the point that EV's could be a "performance" design but that is limiting for the overall car market. Good to see other EV mfg's offering greater variety.

KP in NPT | 2016年10月1日

you are so completely full of it I literally just spit out my cheese and cracker.

I'm sorry, do you have some Tesla insider feeding you facts? Where have you seen anywhere there will be an "added hatchback?" Some people want a hatchback - but the only words I've seen from anyone at Tesla (Elon, in this case) is that they will work on "enlarging the trunk opening.) Nothing about adding a hatch. In fact it was explained that a hatch would require drastic changes to the design - and given they put pencils down a few months after the reveal I would be surprised if a hatch was indeed added.

But unlike you, I will not say "there will be no hatch", since no one knows since there hasn't been an announcement. because that would be speculation stated as fact

All three of the cars you mentioned are hybrids. Not BEVs, which is what I am talking about. I have not driven the Volt or the BMW. As for the Fusion, I test drove it before we bought our Tesla. It has ZERO trunk space because making it a hybrid with a battery was an afterthought, since it wasn't designed from the ground up to be an EV, and so the battery pack was shoved into the trunk. There is literally room for maybe 3 bags of groceries and that's it.

I do believe that if automakers besides tesla were SERIOUS about making BEVs (not hybrids. BEVs.) they would design one from the ground up and it wouldn't look like a toy, or a weird mobile. It would be as stylish as it's ICE counterparts. As Tesla has shown, when you do that, you get hundreds of thousands of people willing to plunk down a deposit years in advance.

EaglesPDX | 2016年10月1日

@mp1156 "Where have you seen anywhere there will be an "added hatchback?"

Musk stated they are redoing the trunk lid on the T3 to make it more like the hatchback on the TS....and Volt.

KP in NPT | 2016年10月1日

Please link to this. Because you are the only one who has seen it.

KP in NPT | 2016年10月1日

This is what I am referring to - that it would be enlarged, and that it was "taken care of." No where does it say it is a hatch.

Could it be? I suppose. But no one from tesla has uttered the word "hatchback" "lift back" in describing the final design of the model 3.

EaglesPDX | 2016年10月1日

If you look a picture of the TS hatchback you will see.

burdogg | 2016年10月1日

Eagles - the all Knowing God - love that you are here to get us all straightened out. Thank you for spreading your light and knowledge and know all with us inferior ones with just our opinions on the unknown.

KP in NPT | 2016年10月1日

What is a TS? A Tesla Model S? I have one. i know what it looks like. That doesn't mean that's what will be on the model 3 and nowhere has it been said that it will.

jordanrichard | 2016年10月2日

Eagles, yet again you are spitting speculation as fact. Elon said they did some tweaks to enlarge the trunk opening, but it is still a trunk. They will not make the Model ≡ a hatchback. Yes, I stated that as fact. Tesla went to great lengths to create as much rear headroom as possible in the Model ≡. To do this they removed the cross member that is above the rear passengers heads, hence the full glass roof from the B-pillars back. In order to do this, they eliminate the ability to make it a hatchback as there is no place to support hinges. If one wants a "Model ≡ hatchback", that is rumored to be called the Model Y. It will be the "CUV" version of the Model ≡.

I have a MS and if the rear cross member/brace were removed, there would be 3-4 inches more head room, but then there would be no place to hinge the rear hatch.

EaglesPDX | 2016年10月2日

@jordanrichard " Elon said they did some tweaks to enlarge the trunk opening, but it is still a trunk."

It's not the trunk we are looking to modify. As long as the trunk has the same expansive liftback as the Model S that allows lots of cargo, that's what people are expecting on the T3 once Musk admitted it was too small and promised to fix it. The TS example works fine.

SamO | 2016年10月2日

Trolling 101 . . . denigrate or change the name of the product. Then "what, I didn't mean it. I thought everyone calls it that . . ."


It's a Model S, MS, S. Model X, MX, X. Model ≡, M≡, or ≡.

Not TS, dumbo.

The hatchback crap is just a setup for later. Big disappointment, boo hoo . . .woe is me. I love the spacious subcompact that is the Dolt. Only twice as expensive as a comparable gas car. lol

Also, who makes a volt and bolt which have nearly identical consonant sounds so that everyone gets confused when discussing them.

Friend: Wait so the Bolt has gas backup and the Volt is electric, right?

Me: I think all of GM's cars have gas. If you want a long distance electric, just wait for the ≡. And Tesla has a network of REAL fast chargers. Free for life.

Friend: But GM has chargers too, right?

Me: Nope. And their cars take at least 2.5X as long to charge.

Friend: F&$* that. I'm getting a Model ≡ reservation. Worth the wait.

KP in NPT | 2016年10月2日

"It's not the trunk we are looking to modify. "

we? Seriously LMAO.

MarlonBrown | 2016年10月2日

I did read this bogus journalism as well. Just silly to create rumours if the Model 3 MAXIMUM ESTIMATED range has not been even disclosed. All we know that the MINIMUM battery would reach 215 miles. Based on the actual range of the Model S, we all know that Tesla could deliver 300 miles. But the weak liars in journalism need to deliver some sensationalism. It seems the same type of journalism that is covering up for Hillary...