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EMF exposure in EV

EMF exposure in EV

I was ready to pull the trigger on a model X over the weekend. What pulled me back was the magnetic field exposure that has me concerned. I spend numerous hours researching the harmful effect of eletromagnetic exposure to humans. Armed with a trifield EMF meter, I went to a tesla service center where I was kindly assisted by the tech advisor who allowed me to sit in a model X with the battery on. I took 3 readings for each seats: floor, seat, eye level. As expected when I moved further from the floor battery, the exposure reading decreases. At the floor it read 12 microTesla (120 milliGauss), on the seat .36 microTesla, at head level 0 microTesla. According to the EMF meter gauge, any reading above .3 microTeslas (3 milliGaus) is considered unsafe. I expects the reading to be higher as the car accelerates to speed. Is there any product that can shield these potential harmful magnetic field? I thought that since MX is constructed out of aluminum, it would help in blocking these harmful EMF. Can someone shed more light on this topic to put me more at ease? As of now I will be on the fence. Thanks to everyone for contributing to this topic.

TeslaTap.com | 2017年8月23日

I suspect you'll find ICE cars also have EMF levels, as do houses, and many other areas you're likely to be in. Obviously, this is a concern to you, but short of camping out without any power, it's going to be very hard to live without some EMF radiation.

The frequency would also seem to be a far larger concern. At the X-Ray level it can clearly be harmful. At 60 Hz, it's harmless. Does your meter include a spectrum analyzer? Without knowing the frequencies, the results of any EMF meter are rather pointless.

Next, the battery is always on, and is DC. The battery itself cannot produce any EMF. While stationary and inside the car, you're more likely seeing the EMF from the display - similar to any laptop or TV display, I'm guessing around 60 Hz for the display update. There could be some additional radiation from the DC-DC inverter that charges the 12v battery. I'd guess this is in the 15 KHz region, also quite safe. This is similar to most laptop's power adapter, as most use a switching power supply design in the 15 kHz range.

Anyway, I hope that's helpful. Here's a IEEE paper that goes into far more depth on safe EMF levels at different frequencies: http://emfguide.itu.int/pdfs/C95.1-2005.pdf It's not the easiest read, but seems to be one of the more compressive works done on EMF that is trustworthy.

SO | 2017年8月23日

For comparison.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2010/08/mythbuster-emf-levels-i...

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2010/08/mythbuster-emf-levels-i...

"To get a sense of scale, though, note that users of personal computers are subject to EMF exposure in the range of 2 to 20 mG, electric blankets 5 to 30 mG, and a hair dryer 10 to 70 mG, according to an Australian government compilation. In this country, several states limit EMF emissions from power lines to 200 mG. However, there are no U.S. standards specifically governing EMF in cars."

Mike83 | 2017年8月23日

I have the Bio Hazard Defense system and love it. All those carcinogenic diesel, gas and exhaust fumes are 100 times more dangerous Stick your meter next to an alternator and an ICE engine. How does compare it compare to a cell phone or diesel engine? Fun experiment. Then you need to assess what are the ill effects possible.

SCCRENDO | 2017年8月23日

This topic has been discussed multiple times and I wish we could get an expert to weigh in. This is the best I could find
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/emf-eletromagnetic-field-in-tesl...

Frank99 | 2017年8月23日

I'd like to reiterate TeslaTap's statement: A non-moving Tesla battery isn't going to generate any EMF. None. Any reading you got on your meter is likely from some other environmental source. Look at your data - there's three times the EMF at seat level as at the floor, suggesting that the EMF is NOT coming from the floor (because then it would be stronger at the floor...). Then you see 0 at head level - which makes no sense, as EMF fields drop as the cube of the distance from the source.

Note that you're exposed to EMF in the range of 250 to 650 milliGauss from the Earth's magnetic field...

Tropopause | 2017年8月23日

I'm a huge EMF fan. Unbelievable.

eric.zucker | 2017年8月24日

Take your EMF readings abord an electric train, trolleybus, and near a high voltage power line. Then lets discuss.

People are subject to very high EMF in trains as the drive current is very significant when accelerating. Do you worry about riding in a train? So why should you worry in a Tesla where the EMF is much less? Are you convinced the EMF has an impact on your health? Are you particularly sensitive to it?

Mike83 | 2017年8月24日

I have heard of people using magnets(EMF producer)to improve health issues. Is there a benefit?

SCCRENDO | 2017年8月24日

@Mike83. No. But let's not go there.

Mike83 | 2017年8月24日

For 4 years now driving our Tesla I have improved blood pressure, body fat, more endurance, and feel more alive. Maybe its less EMF's or more EMF's. Or maybe its that I don't waste time going to gas stations and exercise more and cut down on red meat.
Just to add to the mix of wild ideas for fun.

SCCRENDO | 2017年8月24日

@Mike. I don't know you well enough but I would bet on the latter plus perhaps some other variables not accounted for. I need a lot more convincing to credit EMF

Mike83 | 2017年8月24日

I believe you to be correct SCCRENDO.
I just read that a lady just celebrated her 100 year birthday. She claims its due to eating dark chocolate. My theory is it makes her happy but it may also be physiological?
My point really is one needs good controls for good experimental design.

SCCRENDO | 2017年8月24日

@Mike. Seeing you asked
https://www.livescience.com/40174-magnetic-therapy.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_therapy

Don't want to go too much into chocolate. It ain't the secret elixir of youth. The calorie increase probably negates benefits but here is what I found
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/270272.php

Mike83 | 2017年8月24日

@SCCRENDO Thanks. Some thoughts:

I will continue doing Tai Chi to improve my chi but of course there is nothing really definitive but most likely placebo effect for EMFs. In effect there seems to be not harm or benefits other than placebo like some drugs.

Dark chocolate is the key as it has less sugar; we actually put raw chocolate in our smoothies. It apparently lowers LDLs, may prevent Alzheimer and heart attacks. Moderation of course is imperative. We also bicycle, hike and kayak for exercise and fun.

This is our Tesla lifestyle which has beneficial physical, emotional, mental and spiritual positives.

RedPillSucks | 2017年8月24日

I believe eating dark chocolate while riding in a tesla model s will improve my health situation.
I'll see if I can get my doctor to approve it.

sp_tesla | 2017年8月24日

RedPillSucks | August 24, 2017
I believe eating dark chocolate while riding in a tesla model s will improve my health situation."

Cacao beans and nibs contain a number of beneficial constituents, but many of these constituents are destroyed or lessened when processed. Health practitioners recommend that anyone interested in eating cacao for its health benefits use raw, unprocessed cacao beans and nibs rather than processed chocolate.

SCCRENDO | 2017年8月24日

@sp_tesla +1
@Mike. I approve your lifestyle >but again lets not give chocolate too much credit
@RedPillSucks. I approve it as long as you are not diabetic and don't overdo it because of the calories

Mike83 | 2017年8月24日

Having AP2 makes eating chocolate and having a cappuccino while enjoying the scenery safer. I wouldn't eat in the car without AP to avoid spills.

Mike83 | 2017年8月24日

Thanks SCCRENDO. but I have a confession that I drink plenty of cappuccinos May need to cut back. ;-)

roodtuodave | 2017年8月24日

I like Mike83's first comment. Basically, if you are worried about EMF safety you may want to re-think the relative safety of operating an ice vehicle. Example, If you have a car with a gas engine and you open the doors to load your kids with the engine running and you are all breathing exhaust fumes... did you think about how unhealthy breathing the poisonous gases from the tailpipe would be? Now multiply that by the number of cars on the road on your daily commute... get a tesla with a good air filter. Bioweapon defense mode anyone? :)

roodtuodave | 2017年8月24日

By the way, any conductor with a charge traveling through it generates a magnetic field to some degree.

Dramsey | 2017年8月24日

"This topic has been discussed multiple times and I wish we could get an expert to weigh in."

Well, since you asked...

Obviously, the term "EMF field" encompasses everything from the minuscule field generated by your (doubtless electric) watch to, say, an MRI machine.

(It's important to distinguish between _electromagnetic fields_ and _electromagnetic radiation_. The former is a field produced by electricity, and the latter is photons (simplifying some here, but you get the idea). Think "microwave oven" for the first category and "laser" for the second, and you'll get the idea.)

Now, at high levels, EMF can definitely affect you, depending on the frequency. Remember that microwave oven.

But what the OP is concerned with is long-term exposure to much, much lower frequency fields (microwave ovens operate in the gHz range.) And there is precisely no evidence-- zero, zip, none-- that such fields are deleterious to human health. People who swear blind that EMF fields make them sick, give them headaches, etc. are never able to demonstrate this in a laboratory setting.

If EMF does affect humans, it's at a level so low it's lost in the background noise.

SCCRENDO | 2017年8月24日

Thanks Dave. Much appreciated

georgehawley.fl.us | 2017年8月25日

As @TeslaTap points out, dangers of prolonged exposure to EMF are not just field strength dependent but also frequency dependent.

Also, cars are pretty transparent to low frequency EMF, eg. 60 Hz. Did you calibrate the environment you were in by making measurements outside the car?

Mike83 | 2017年8月25日

@sp_tesla
Yep. We use the cocoa nibs in our smoothies as one of several ingredients.

Some good points on EMF radiation. Nothing to stress about for sure.

Mike83 | 2017年8月25日

@roodtuodave Bio Defense mode is awesome. We also don't go to gas stations. Less stress.

TeslaTap.com | 2017年8月25日

@Dramsy - your additional clarity is always great to read!

@SO - Nice CR reference to put things in perspective:

...users of personal computers are subject to EMF exposure in the range of 2 to 20 mG, electric blankets 5 to 30 mG, and a hair dryer 10 to 70 mG, according to an Australian government compilation.

The CR tests on cars had peak levels in a ICE car (Chevy Colbalt) of 30 mG.

Seems like a non-issue.

Dramsey | 2017年8月25日

For those interested, Robert Heinlein wrote a science fiction novel back in the 50s dealing with this, albeit obliquely. The novel is "Waldo", and the eponymous protagonist suffers from myasthenia gravis, a debilitating neuromuscular disease that leaves its victims too weak to care for themselves.

The society in this novel makes extensive use of broadcast power, something any Tesla advocate would appreciate. It's used even for powering vehicles in real-time. Waldo's doctor notes that athletic performance has been declining over time and suggests that decades-long exposure to broadcast power might be the cause. It's never resolved in the novel but it's a good read anyway.

NKYTA | 2017年8月25日

@Dramsey, we have more in common than you might think.

+1

NKYTA | 2017年8月25日

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is probably more apropos to Tesla and Elon, but perhaps not this thread.
;-)

SUN 2 DRV | 2017年8月26日

Frank +10: The OP wasn't measuring what he thought he was measuring..... clearly a failed experiment... EMF comes from current FLOWING...not battery potential...

SCCRENDO | 2017年8月26日

It was a good attempt at being scientific. But science requires good controls and peer review. The "peers" on this forum are not impressed with OP's controls. OP should repeat his experiment in a variety of vehicles and if possible while stationary and in motion and get back to us with his results.

ram1901 | 2017年8月26日

OPs: Throw out that useless EMF meter and buy the Tesla. You'll never look back.. :)
Hope this helps...

OH, and by the way, you may want to get rid of your TV, Microwave, Laptop or Desktop Computer and Monitor just for starters if you decide to NOT get a Tesla on the basis of EMF readings.. :)

sacredself | 2017年12月19日

On that point ram1901, I suspect the huge monitor in the car and the signal it runs on is probably more harmful than the electric motor.

This is an interesting thread, as I am purging my life of TV, microwaves, computers, and cell phone (for health reasons in myself and my epileptic girlfriend who is negatively affected by pretty much all artificial light... and she also can't legally drive which is how she became really interested in Tesla because of the autonomous driving feature), and am wondering if anyone is having any adverse reactions.

I see discussion, theory, and conjecture in the Tesla forum, but not too much actually reported, which is reassuring.

Anyway, thanks to those who have chimed in.

reed_lewis | 2017年12月19日

The monitor in the front of the car is a LCD panel with LED backlights which does not emit any radiation. If it were a CRT, then it might be doing something.

TeslaTap.com | 2017年12月19日

@sacredself and @reed_lewis - actually the display will generate a tiny bit of harmless radiation due to the fast switching of the lcd pixels. Not sure most equipment could measure it though as the power levels are so low to run the display. LED backlight is also likely to use pulse-width modulation to control the brightness - likely in the 15 kHz range. Again, this is at trivial levels and is similar to PC/laptop LCD display monitors. Most high-frequency radiation from the dash will be from the WiFi and Bluetooth circuitry - similar to any phone, but further away from people than a cell phone.

Remnant | 2017年12月20日

@sacredself (December 19, 2017)

<< I am purging my life of TV, microwaves, computers, and cell phone (for health reasons in myself and my epileptic girlfriend who is negatively affected by pretty much all artificial light... ) >>

It seems the health problems are related to flicker. It used to be a big problem with the fluorescent lights on magnetic ballasts, but the problem has been revived by LED lighting.

Some manufacturers produce LED drivers that connect directly to a mains supply yet claim to produce “flicker-free” power. Cirrus Logic, for example, has recently released its CS161x LED Driver family (CS1610-FSZ, CS1611-FSZ). These chips may be used with 100 to 120 VAC and 220 to 240 VAC line voltages and can maintain the flicker-free performance even when operated with legacy dimming switches (which can compromise the flicker index).

CUI Inc. also offers a constant current driver that offers flicker-free performance at full brightness even when used with traditional dimming switches, called the V-Infinity VLED15 (Figure 5). The module is available in two versions, one for 115 VAC inputs and the other for 230 VAC inputs. Another option is ROHM Semiconductor’s BP5843A. This is an 11-pin SIP module that can be used to power several high brightness LEDs in serial or parallel from a 113 to 170 VAC supply. The module features a low peak-to-peak output voltage ripple that ensures flicker-free LED power.

Check

https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2012/
jul/characterizing-and-minimizing-led-flicker-in-lighting-applications

Remnant | 2017年12月20日

@Remnant (December 20, 2017)

<< It seems the health problems are related to flicker. >>

We must clarify that flicker effects are not issues of EM radiation, but of vision physiology, and that they are species specific and can have biological, ecological, and nosological consequences not fully understood as yet.

For a set of interesting data and comments, see
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0098631

science-isbetter | 2017年12月20日

For the record, a DC current does produce a magnetic field. Units can be gauss or tesla.

Ask Oersted.

No comment here on health effects. Just correcting the record.

Toby | 2018年3月2日

Hi neil90250
I have a Roadster for 9 years and am electro sensitive, to a point that I once bought a Model-S P85+ and after 6 months had to sell it again. I drive it for a few days and then get all kinds of side effects. The Model S and the Model X should be fine for you if you are not electro sensitive (about 3% of the population are electrosensitive, you can read up on it online). But if you feel effects from WIFI or Cellular etc, then I recommend going back to less EMF heavy cars until Tesla and other electric car manufaturers take Electro Sensitivity into account and shield their cars better. I still have the Roadster and can drive it a little bit but after repeated driving I start getting symptoms. My wife's I3 gives me the same symptoms. I am sure electric cars can be built in a way to make them safe for Electro sensitive people but for now I went back to a EMF neutral Touareg, (nasty diesel)
you can check out Peter Sullivan, he does a lot of good public awareness, information in regards to EMF. I am convinced Tesla is the future and the cars drive like spaceships and the more they will become the standard, the more Electro Sensitivity will become an issue so it would be wise for Tesla to address this sooner than later...
toby gad

Toby | 2018年3月2日

Hi neil90250
I have a Roadster for 9 years and am electro sensitive, to a point that I once bought a Model-S P85+ and after 6 months had to sell it again. I drive it for a few days and then get all kinds of side effects. The Model S and the Model X should be fine for you if you are not electro sensitive (about 3% of the population are electrosensitive, you can read up on it online). But if you feel effects from WIFI or Cellular etc, then I recommend going back to less EMF heavy cars until Tesla and other electric car manufaturers take Electro Sensitivity into account and shield their cars better. I still have the Roadster and can drive it a little bit but after repeated driving I start getting symptoms. My wife's I3 gives me the same symptoms. I am sure electric cars can be built in a way to make them safe for Electro sensitive people but for now I went back to a EMF neutral Touareg, (nasty diesel)
you can check out Peter Sullivan, he does a lot of good public awareness, information in regards to EMF. I am convinced Tesla is the future and the cars drive like spaceships and the more they will become the standard, the more Electro Sensitivity will become an issue so it would be wise for Tesla to address this sooner than later...
toby gad

Toby | 2018年3月2日

also, neil90250, let me add that EMF meters probably wont give you reliable data about potential EMF symptoms if you happen to be electro sensitive. I measured the roadster and the model S, the Prius etc... it seemed like the model S had lower readings than the roadster. I can drive the roadster longer though than the Model S. personally Im not even sure if my symptoms in the model s come from the electric engine or perhaps from the fact that WIFI is permanently on on the infotainment system. I also get symptoms when the cellphone antenna is on in the car, so its usually on airplane mode when I am not using it...in the touareg there are no symptoms...but of course its nasty back to the past diesel... I would recommend you to rent the Model X or S for a week or two and if you feel good in it after a few days then buy it!!! If you get skin irritations, brain fog and fatigue, etc, then recoonsider and read up on electro sensitivity and do your homework
toby

SCCRENDO | 2018年3月3日

@Toby. Do you have any hard scientific evidence besides your subjective “feelings”??

Earl and Nagin ... | 2018年3月3日

@Toby,
It was just as likely the outgassing emissions of the new upholstery as EMF (AKA "that new car smell") or the time constant of the software suspension in the Model S.
Be careful of blindly jumping to a conclusion as you'll solve the wrong problem and likely cause other problems such as the well proven ones that diesel ICE cause.

rxlawdude | 2018年3月3日

Why am I thinking about Saul Goodman's brother about now???

Toby | 2018年4月3日

the real question would be if you are electro sensitive or not. If you belong to the 95% of the population who are not feeling symptoms from WIFI, Cellular, Cordless Phones, and other such devices then you will be fine with the X. If however you are electro sensitive then you may have a problem with the car down the road. Read up on Peter Sullivan's blog's if you do feel symptoms. I sold my Model S after 5 months of unbearable symptoms, long story, told many times on these blogs already...still have the roadster and am actually shielding it now...Peter Sullivan has one too and has shielded it many years ago and drives it happily... however shielding the X or S may be a lot more difficult than the bare bones Roadster
toby

Toby | 2018年4月3日

also, ignore the trolls on this board, there's always plenty of ignorant comments on any Tesla blog that concerns electro sensitivity

compchat | 2018年4月4日

@OP

Better check your moles for malignant degeneration. Probably more likely to find a health related problem then wasting your time with your meters. Do you have nothing better to do ?

compchat | 2018年4月4日

Oh no,

Toby is another electrosensitive human who can feel the electricity pulsing through the wires in his home and through the community. Tell me, do you live with kerosene lamps instead of light bulbs ?

naiguy | 2018年6月19日

I am about to pull the trigger on an MS, can someone explain what is an acceptable Mill gauss or Micro Tesla magnetic field exposure for an MS?

Also, I have been reading this article, it says that EV still impose a health risk. Anyone with knowledge knows how true this is?

https://www.saferemr.com/2014/07/shouldnt-hybrid-and-electric-cars-be-re...

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