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Permanent Magnet Alternators on Electric Vehicles

Permanent Magnet Alternators on Electric Vehicles

SCCRENDO | 2018年1月8日

Another Nobel laureate applicant

lilbean | 2018年1月8日

Ooo. I could incorporate the magnets into the hamster wheels. Thanks!

SCCRENDO | 2018年1月8日

@lilbean. Looks like you are also working on that Nobel prize. LOL

lilbean | 2018年1月8日

LOL!

jdietrich | 2018年1月8日

These devices exist on large diesel generators and provide 3-phase power (which is rectified) for their voltage regulators. The permanent magnet generators are mounted on the same shaft as the main rotor of the generator. These devices develop power greater than 2 MW. I am sure you would find them in other "clean" generators such as wind turbines, etc. This is proven technology, just a different application.

jdietrich | 2018年1月8日

It is obvious that no one here has seen the inner workings of a commercial generator. It is not esoteric. There are multiple generators on the main shaft. The rotor of the PMG have the magnets and would be mounted on the rotating shaft. The stator windings would be stationary with respect to the rotor. The output of the stator would be rectified and filtered (electronics) and then sent to the batteries.

These commercial generators rotate at 1200-1800 rpm.

rxlawdude | 2018年1月8日

Relevance to Tesla? ZERO.

jdietrich | 2018年1月8日

Suit your ****ing complacent self.

bish | 2018年1月8日

@science is better,

Please add jdietrich to your list.

SCCRENDO | 2018年1月8日

@jdietrich. I guess if you are wandering on our forum with the intent of enlightening us you should at least explain what you are talking about and try show us the relevance. A header without any explanation is not a way of differenrtiating yourself from the endless morons that arrive here when with their self perceived earth shattering ideas that have limited plausibility or relevance. But if we are wrong about you please enlighten us and make us regret our skepticism

jdietrich | 2018年1月8日

There are a number of patents related to using PMG devices in hybrid/electric vehicle power generation and battery charging. US 9819224 B2 describes an example as well as the cited US patents (eg. US102140028094, US20100276993, etc.)

jdietrich | 2018年1月8日

Papers such as “Sizing a High Speed PM Generator for Green Energy Applications”, Journal of Electrical Systems 6-4 (2010):501-516 provide insight on sizing PMG for different applications.

Frank99 | 2018年1月8日

So what do you want to do with the PM generator?

Tesla already uses the motor to generate electricity to recharge the batteries under light braking. No need to add an extra generator onto the existing motor shaft.

DTsea | 2018年1月8日

oP wants to drive n alternator with an electric motor. Eye roll.

Nexxus | 2018年1月9日

@jdietrich,

Those patents you refer to use the PMG's to recharge the batteries with the power from the ICE that drives the car when the batteries get low. They can't recharge the batteries any other way. What you're touting is a perpetual motion machine that violates the laws of physics. With Elon hiring the best engineers that are out there, wouldn't you think they'd have thought of this already?

The amount of retardation that the generator would put on the electric motor has to be overcome by...wait for it...more power from the batteries, thus defeating the purpose of having them. This can't and never will work so there is no use arguing. Leave the engineering to those who know what they are doing.

Should_I | 2018年1月9日

What is truly sad is that today we have a lot of "educated idiots" who can understand the permanent magnet alternator, but then can't grasp how applying it to an EV is pointless, same engineers who don't know which end of a screwdriver to hold..............

reed_lewis | 2018年1月9日

The basic issue with these people is that they know an alternator generates power, but there is no connect in their minds that it takes work to make the alternator spin. Because it just spins in an ICE vehicle with no discernable load on the car, that means in their minds you can get endless electricity from an alternator.

This is what having a little knowledge does. It makes people dumber...

science-isbetter | 2018年1月9日

Most probably not a youngster (hostility gives it away) who in a good natured way attempts to be creative and invent something of value, jdietrich earns his way onto the igNobel list of perpetual motion machines:

Bert 19431
Stackgenerator
Bell0040
dmartinezdamo 11/2/2016 (Oxygen to convert energy)
Michael Wanamaker 12/23/2016 (Magnetic generators for electric cars).
Silb3r 1/3/2017 (Wind Turbines)
JustinFrench 1/8/2017 (Generator on the Wheels)
Silv_c 1/12/2017 (Wind Turbines)
noravak 5/14/2017 (Artificial Wind)
aenishaenslin 6/21/2017 (Self Charging - via air turbines)
akshaymanmode88 11/15/2017 (Self charing technology)
jdietrich 1/8/2018 (Permanent Magnet Alternators on Electric Vehicles)

Goose | 2018年1月9日

dilly dilly

Rocky_H | 2018年1月9日

Yes, dilly dilly indeed. (I like that application of the phrase.)

@science is better, One other one you really need to add to your list is @Coventrybird from January 1, 2018. Very aggressive and angry--compares it to quantum physics for bonus points.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/charging-car-self-reliant

jdietrich | 2018年1月9日

Yes, I understand the regenerative breaking part. However, companies such as Alxion produce direct drive PMGs that could be incorporated on the end of the two inductive motor shafts to provide maybe 5kW (at a weight of 50 lbs) of charging power to the batteries during the time the motors are operating (much longer than the regenerative breaking occurs-more energy storage). I am suggesting longer range with less responsive acceleration (rotational weight/inertia). Thanks for the addition to the Perpetual Motion list. I believe the PMGs would produce much more charging power than the regenerative breaking.

I just do not see the notion of direct drive PMGs being mentioned mr. lewis & should_I. Again, no one seems to understand how commercial PMGs work.

jdietrich | 2018年1月9日

I suspect that one could get 20 miles of charging during a one hour interstate trip using the PMGs. Weight would compare to the engine but be approximately 1% or less curb weight of the vehicle.

jdietrich | 2018年1月9日

How does the rotor inertia of the Axlion PMG at 2.2 x 10^-3 kg/m^2 compare to the Tesla induction motor rotor inertia?

Frank99 | 2018年1月9日

Inertia isn't the problem; in order to get 20 miles (let's say 5 kwh) of charge into the batteries, you have to supply about (5/0.9) = 5.5 kwh (assuming 90% efficiency) to the generator. That 5.5 kwh would have to come from the motors, which get their power from...the battery. You've simply invented a way to take an additional 0.5kw from the battery with no other advantage.

Since the day the first motor was invented, people have wanted to hook them up to a generator and get free electricity. Here's an experiment you can run: take a motor out of a toy car, make sure there are wire leads on it. With the leads separated, spin the motor - it'll probably spin for 2-3 seconds before friction stops it. Now connect the leads and spin the motor. What happens?

science-isbetter | 2018年1月9日

Thanks Rocky_H. Must have missed Coventrybird on New Years Day (what a way to start a new year). List updated here and in Coventrybird's post of 1/1/2018.

Belated welcome to Conventrybird. He understands clearly that those who do not believe in perpetual motion machines are dotards who cannot think outside the box.

Welcome to the ifNOBEL list to both Coverntrybird and jdietrich.

Bert 19431
Stackgenerator
Bell0040
dmartinezdamo 11/2/2016 (Oxygen to convert energy)
Michael Wanamaker 12/23/2016 (Magnetic generators for electric cars).
Silb3r 1/3/2017 (Wind Turbines)
JustinFrench 1/8/2017 (Generator on the Wheels)
Silv_c 1/12/2017 (Wind Turbines)
noravak 5/14/2017 (Artificial Wind)
aenishaenslin 6/21/2017 (Self Charging - via air turbines)
akshaymanmode88 11/15/2017 (Self charing technology)
Coventrybird 1/1/2018 (Charaging Car Self Reliant)
jdietrich 1/8/2018 (Permanent Magnet Alternators on Electric Vehicles)

Rocky_H | 2018年1月9日

I don't get why this is so hard for people to grasp.
battery --> motor --> generator --> battery
It's a closed loop, just drawing extra energy out of the battery, converting it back and forth twice in a circle, and putting it back, except now you only have about 80% of the energy you took out. It's a perpetual energy wasting machine.

reed_lewis | 2018年1月9日

@jdietrich - What you do not understand is that it takes work to turn any generator. There is no way to generate power without using kinetic energy. When you use kinetic energy you slow the car down. Because you slow the car down, you need to use more power from the battery to keep the car moving at the same speed that you want to.

There is no 'free lunch'!

georgehawley.fl.us | 2018年1月9日

Inane thread. flagged.

SCCRENDO | 2018年1月9日

@george. Actually we should keep the thread. It’s educational for those who are prepared to read it. Every time we get a prospective Nobel Laureate posting his variation of his perpetual motion prototype we could link him to this thread.

lilbean | 2018年1月9日

If I shave the hamsters, will that minimize wind resistance and maximize power regeneration or will the fur provide more energy?

SCCRENDO | 2018年1月9日

@lilbean. Above my pay grade. Ask the experts.

lilbean | 2018年1月9日

Lol, @ SCCRENDO :)

blue adept | 2018年1月9日

I'll have you know that I am the only one around here who gets to invent a perpetual motion machine and I'll not tolerate any contenders to the throne!

blue adept | 2018年1月10日

lol

reed_lewis | 2018年1月10日

@lilbean - Perhaps the hamsters could wear the full body swimsuits like the olympic swimmers wear. That way wind resistance will be lessened!

But you need to have a food source and a storage system for that. What about waste? Do you drop it on the ground, or store it for later disposal?

lilbean | 2018年1月10日

@reed, Thank you. Great idea. I know how to sew. I plan to convert waste for fuel. Think of the back to the future car... you could throw any organic material in there for added energy. Not one calorie wasted.

reed_lewis | 2018年1月10日

Hey, that would be a great idea. Use real food for the hamsters, then feed the waste from the hamsters into the "Mr. Fusion" to generate power! But you know it will only be viable if there are cameras allowing viewing of the hamsters while they are working. Plus you would want access doors to replace 'expired' hamsters....

lilbean | 2018年1月10日

Wow. This is more complicated than I thought. I’m sure it can be done. Another great idea, thanks to you. Expired hamsters can be used by Mr. Fusion.

lilbean | 2018年1月10日

I’m so excited. The ideas are just flowing. I could just attach giant magnets to my car and the magnetic pull to other cars will just take me where I need to go. I could save so much battery that way!!!

reed_lewis | 2018年1月10日

Why not have the hamsters eat iron pellets, and then use them to propel the car forward with large magnets? You would probably want to design a metal pellet filtering system to take the metal pellets from the waste to be recycled..

lilbean | 2018年1月10日

Genius @reed! I owe you one. I’ll give you a special shoutout if I get my kickstarter campaign going for this.

lilbean | 2018年1月10日

Move over, Elon! There’s a new brain in town. Watch out Fisker! The Hamster Whisker will soon be a reality.

SCCRENDO | 2018年1月10日

@reed. How about making the wheels and tires transparent and putting the hamsters inside the wheels

reed_lewis | 2018年1月10日

@SCCRENDO - That would allow viewing, but you would still need access ports to swap out non-functional hamsters.

Plus cameras would allow monitoring of all propulsion sources so you could remove underperforming members of the group.

Alan75DUK | 2018年1月10日

Surely it is easier to just harness a couple of horses to the front of the car. Feed them some hay now and again. Their 'exhaust' is good for the garden, and they are self sustaining in that every now and then they produce replacement horses. I can't understand why it has not been done before!

Remnant | 2018年1月10日

@reed_lewis (January 9, 2018)

<< There is no way to generate power without using kinetic energy. >>

Perhaps, not necessarily.

You could use wind or PV energy, or, generally, any external free energy source that you have some capture tech for.

With sails then, you would not just feel like a mere car driver, but more like a sea captain and be on the lookout for rear winds and favorable currents.

lilbean | 2018年1月10日

Ooo. Sails! Perfect for the Santa Ana winds! I may no longer need a battery. I'll just keep it as a backup.

Rocky_H | 2018年1月10日

The shaving or wetsuit ideas may be a bit premature. We need an energy analysis to see if you gain more by reducing wind resistance on the hamsters or by gathering the static electricity of their fur.

@lilbean, "Hamster Whisker"--brilliant.

lilbean | 2018年1月10日

@Rocky. Thanks! I was pondering the fur-wind resistance scenario as well. Certainly we should be able to harness that great energy.

TeslaTap.com | 2018年1月10日

I was thinking it's hard to herd cats, but if you had mice in front of the cats, and harness a few hundred cats to the car, imagine the power! The only problem I can see is hackers tossing a ball of yarn in front of your cats. I'm sure we can figure out a security system to prevent that from happening. I wonder if you need a permit for this to drive on the freeway? Of course the cats might lose interest after 10 feet, then you'd need to call the ASPCA for a tow.

Version 2 could use laser pointers!

As a noise maker is needed per newest regulations - the cats should produce all the noise necessary saving big bucks!

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