500-mile battery pack

500-mile battery pack

Elon: "If we wanted to we could build a 500-mile battery pack now."

Would you be in favour of giving up some space in the car but receive the option of a 500-mile battery pack ? Where would you give up the space ? Perhaps in the "frunk" ? I was wondering what the square part in the back of the frunk was for ...

Would Tesla be able to convince more people to buy the car if the range anxiety would be ruled out ?

Perhaps they are saving it for the model X. I would be interested in getting a 500-mile pack in the S if technical possible.

Volker.Berlin | 2012年5月11日

I think the 500 mile pack is important, though this may be specific to Germany. The "300 mile" pack really is a "400 mile" pack in the city, where 150 miles would be more than enough. On the autobahn however, the "300 mile" pack becomes a "200 mile" pack when you drive 80 mph which is really slow. Speeds of 90-110 mph, which is what many long-distance drivers sustain on the autobahn, do not even occur on Tesla's graph.

Extrapolating the data, if you put the pedal to the medal (Brian H: intentional spelling), you can only go for one hour at a time... A "500 mile" pack would reliably provide 250 autobahn miles, which is a real advantage over the current value of around 150 reliable real-world autobahn miles (without hypermiling).

steven.maes | 2012年5月11日

Volker, my thoughts exactly...

Volker.Berlin | 2012年5月11日

Speculation alert ON. The 300 mile pack for the Model X may double as a 500 mile pack for the Model S. Well, probably the difference is not quite as stark, but I doubt that 85kWh will be sufficient to achieve 300 miles EPA 2-cycle range with the Model X. Based on comparable cars (e.g., M-class vs. E-class), I assume that the Model X will be significantly heavier than the Model S, will very likely have a worse Cd value, and will definitely have a much larger frontal area. From these observations, I conclude that they will have to provide a stronger battery to achieve the same performance for the Model X as for the Model S. It seems obvious, that the "battery slots" of the Model S and Model X should be identical and compatible, thus the battery designed for the Model X may become available for the Model S as well, and provide it with a EPA 2-cycle range significantly north of 300 miles.

Spoiler: The current Model X page explicitly refers to the 60kWh and 85kWh battery packs, and it has conspicuously little mentioning of range... suggesting that a new battery pack may not be available right at launch of the Model X. Pleasant surprises not withstanding.

steven.maes | 2012年5月11日

Good thinking.

Volker.Berlin | 2012年5月11日

Thinking about it, I believe there is a fair chance that a bigger-than-85kWh battery will be offered with the Model X. Just think of all the improvements from the Roadster battery pack to the Model S battery pack. Just as it's inconceivable that Steve Jobs would have announced the new iSomething with "it's a little thicker and heavier than the old one, but...", I'm not seeing Elon Musk announce the Model X with words like "it has somewhat less range than the Model S, but...". Very unlikely IMO. More likely, Elon has a battery tech ace up his sleeve that he will play when the time has come.

gjunky | 2012年5月11日

At Tesla's current pricing, that 500 mile pack would add an additional $30k to the price of an 85kwh version as each 70 mile increment is $10k. I agree a 500 mile pack would be interesting but at that price....?

steven.maes | 2012年5月11日

So they wait for battery prices to drop and implement it at that time in the future ? Could be ...

digitaltim | 2012年5月11日

@Volker.Berlin Same issue on the NJ Turnpike...I'd would buy the 500 mile battery pack if it were available.

Volker.Berlin | 2012年5月11日

gjunky, you are right, I had the same thoughts. Personally, I would possibly take another 10k increment to get to 370 miles. I definitely would not spend a 30k increment to get 500 miles. I hope that at the time the next battery pack becomes available, prices are down "one step", with 60kWh at the base price, one increment for 85kWh, and a second increment for, e.g., 115 kWh.

David M. | 2012年5月11日

I suspect that (for most drivers), the 300mi pack is the sweet spot. Instead of astronomically increasing the price of the car to add a 500mi battery, I'd rather see a network of superchargers on all major highways (sooner as opposed to later). This way, you can drive for 3.5 hours, take a 1 hour break with the supercharger, drive for 3.5 more hours, take another 1 hour break (supercharger), and drive 3.5 more hours, to cover about 750 miles in a (long, 13hr) day.

You would be achieving the same thing (long road trip), with a much less expensive car (300mi vs 500mi car).

Brian H | 2012年5月11日

AFAIK, the X's announced range for the same (60/85) battery packs as the S are 10% lower. The dual motor config doesn't affect this, because of efficiency trade-offs (e.g., rear motor accel, front-motor cruise balancing).

Sudre_ | 2012年5月11日

If I am going to go flying down the highway or autobahn I will take an ICE. When the battery prices come down and the mileage is getting close to the 1000 mile range then a BEV will work for speeds over 80 mph. Even with a 500 mile pack you are going to eat thru that battery extremely fast at 100 mph.

Until the 5-cycle test is at 500 miles or better I will stick with the smallest pack for my needs which in this case is the 60kWh because it will be super chargeable. I'd prefer something closer to 1000 miles on a 2-cycle test.

Even in the US when I was driving thru Montana I was consistently passed when I was traveling at 80 mph so it's not just Germany... It's just legal in Germany :-)

I am really hoping to lease the S until the bigger batteries come out and prices come down. I prefer owning over leasing but everything I have been the first in line to buy has always come down 5 fold after 3 years. CD player, DVD player, heck my 42" Plasma monitor cost me 10K and now they are practically pocket change with more features.... but I am beginning to ramble on.

jerry3 | 2012年5月11日

- Even in the US when I was driving thru Montana I was consistently passed when I was traveling at 80 mph

I've found it doesn't matter what speed you drive at, there will always be someone on your tail. Even at over 100 mph (and no I don't mean the policeman :-) About the only thing you can do is don't let it bother you.

Brian H | 2012年5月11日

On some roads, everyone drives faster than the average speed of the traffic.

brianman | 2012年5月12日


Thumper | 2012年5月12日

Likewise, I have noticed that about 75% of the population is below average intelligence!

nhurst | 2012年5月12日

Actually, 75% of the population could be below average intelligence. Statisticians are clever people, not necessarily always intuitive.

jerry3 | 2012年5月12日

NHurst -- Right. There is a difference between the "mean" and the "average". If you have 30, 30, 30, 50, 50, 70, 80, 120, 150, and 210. The average is 82 and there are seven below 82.

brett.padgett | 2012年5月13日

...and 80% of drivers believe that they are better than the average driver.

wbrown01 | 2012年5月13日

I think very soon we will be at a 500 miles battery, same dimension and weight as now but we will have to wait 5 years. We will pay less for it even, I think I can wait.

mvbf | 2012年5月13日

Even though they have said explicitly the model S will not have a tow package, isn't there some kind of aftermarket trailer with range extending battery in it I read about somewhere?

Volker.Berlin | 2012年5月14日

The trailer battery/range extender issue has been a very popular topic a while ago:

I think, to comment on this topic, it's best to add to those threads.

Even though they have said explicitly the model S will not have a tow package, isn't there some kind of aftermarket trailer with range extending battery in it I read about somewhere? (mvbf)

Not that I'm aware of. See the threads above.

Timo | 2012年5月14日

I'm pretty sure I commented here about Panasonic batteries, but now that message is gone. Did I dream it or did others see it too? It should be after wbrown01 message and talk about how it doesn't take five years before we have capability to make 500 mile battery pack that has same physical size as Model S battery pack.

Brian H | 2012年5月14日

Timo, install Lazarus add-on. You can view and search and recover any and every post you've made. Untick the time to remove option, or set it to a large # of weeks. If you click the associated URL, it takes you directly back to the page.

Main use is to restore/recover typing you've done on a failed submission; it keeps a realtime record.

Timo | 2012年5月14日

Lazarus wouldn't help because I know I wrote one. I'm just not sure if I pressed submit. I think I did, and that's what bugs me. It might be a glitch in the forum software or it got filtered out by spam fighting bot.

TikiMan | 2012年5月14日

This could have a huge impact on batteries in the near future...

Timo | 2012年5月15日

Those figures in Nature Nanotech are unbelievable. ~2.5kAh/kg for 1C discharge and capacity retention of 85% at 6000 cycles (for car that goes 300 miles a charge that would be 1.8 million miles).

Note the capacity: Panasonic 4.0Ah batteries have approx 54g weight so they get 74Ah/kg. 33 times higher capacity.

Unfortunately that's only half-battery so real capacity would be quite a lot lower, but it would still be very high.

Also power density would be quite high: they tested that with 20C, which gives 85kWh battery 1700kW power output, without much capacity loss. Twice the Bugatti Veyron power. When that gets to mass production I'd say ICE age is permanently over. (20C charging would give battery a full charge in 3 minutes, but you would need insane power output from the charger).

Timo | 2012年5月15日

OK, now I think I know what happened to my previous "disappeared" message. I probably got same "validation error" as I did with my next message in here. This time I noticed the error and managed to get past it by refreshing the page.

uedinet | 2012年5月15日

with the new litium technology panasonic brings 57% more energydensity into same space... 500 Miles-Bamm

Brian H | 2012年5月17日

brianman | May 12, 2012

Paradox, I think!
"For almost everyone, their friends have more friends than they do."
or the opposite,
"Almost no one's friends have fewer friends than they do."