Tesla Model 3 'rival' Volkswagen ID.3 is turning into a cautionary tale

Tesla Model 3 'rival' Volkswagen ID.3 is turning into a cautionary tale

"Volkswagen CEO Herbert Diess has stated that the shift to electric mobility will be difficult, noting at a top management conference last month that the compliance with the limits for supplying, building, and selling battery electric vehicles was “perhaps the most difficult task Volkswagen has ever had to face.”"

As Elon put it, building a lot of BEVs is like "Production Hell". So much for the belief in legacy carmakers being able to beat Tesla whenever they felt like it because of the former's manufacturing prowess. They still have batteries and car dealers to contend with, while protecting their current moneymakers. They can't make the EVs look *too* good if they're not able to make enough money on them to make up for the loss sales on ICEV. It's like the carmakers are between a rock, a hard place, and a cliff. Good luck to them, though, since we need them to achieve Tesla's mission.

Geico | 2020年2月25日

The main problem is the true necessity for EV’s. They have to add value to a customer. Where do EV’s add value?

-less frequent maintenance visits
-better torque
-cheaper to charge at home
-cheaper to drive

So what are the drawbacks?

-Very expensive
-Charging times
-Less independent service centers
-Less flexibility for travel (finding DC fast chargers)
-overall more inconvenient

Currently, owning an EV is not a win-win scenario. It is not a product that you could live solely on without making some type of sacrifice. A perfect example, I went to the mountains in NC. I couldn’t take my Model 3 because there are no chargers around other than wall outlets. I had to take a ICE truck. There is a gas station every 5 miles.

There is no need for major legacy automakers to try and PUSH the EV revolution, the costs involved are too great and there are too many inconveniences.

Demand for EV’s has only increased 2% in 2019 to a total of 2.1 million units. That isn’t a big enough market yet to justify procurement of huge battery plants.

The only other automaker with a mass attractive EV is Ford with their new Mach E. Let’s see how demand over time plays out for them.

The EV revolution is way over hyped. It’s like people forget that Tesla could put all the same technology (FSD) in an ICE and it be a $25,000 ICE car.

SamO | 2020年2月25日

VW is in serious trouble. Mostly because their EU fines could reach $10B if they can’t sell their half-baked ID3.

Mike83 | 2020年2月25日

VW sowed lies and deceit. Payback time.

Xerogas | 2020年2月25日

Hello, 2007 calling: “Smartphones only represent 1% of the phone market. Apple is stupid for thinking anyone would buy an overpriced mobile phone. My Blackberry lasts a week per charge. It’s as if the world forgot that Apple could make a $50 flip phone and sell a ton of them”

— said Nokia executives who are all out of a job now

“EVs are not the future”

— said no one, ever, except anti-Tesla FUDsters on this forum

ymodak | 2020年2月25日

@mabuck , I dont think you can put FSD into an ICE vehicle. Their electrical power footprint is too small to accommodate all the components of FSD. It is unclear and I am told not possible even on 48V systems.

Today the TCO of a 50K Tesla sedan is same as a 25K brand new mass market sedan.

And the TCO of a 20K used Tesla will be equal to a used free ie, 0 cost/price mass market ICE sedan. But right now there are no 20K Model 3's out there. Maybe that is why their residual values are so high. But give it a few years and it will become clear that a used Model 3 is as cheap as a free used Camry/Accord etc.

Geico | 2020年2月25日

Are you kidding me @ymodak? You can't be serious....Of course it is possible on ICE vehicles. Slap their technology on ICE and there ya go, $25,000 toyota camery with advanced auto steer and lane change functions.

Geico | 2020年2月25日


Terrible comparison, but OK. The apple smartphone gave people MORE options, flexibility, and no compromise other than price to purchase.

Smartphones were an improvement on existing technology, thus an easy transition. EV's are not an improvement in technology, it's a step back with charge times and charging convenience. With a very high barrier to entry, price. EV's still have a looong way of having to improve to become a clear advantage over ICE, whereas the smartphone was a clear improvement over a blackberry.

Geico | 2020年2月25日

From day 1, it was a clear improvement.

Uncle Paul | 2020年2月25日

Problems with a $30,000 ICE economy car is that they are soon to be banned from many City Centers and not allowed to be produced/sold in many countries.

EV is the way of the future. Clinging to the old ways rarely gets you ahead. too much pollution will no longer be tolerated.

When people saw broken down gassers in the beginning, they would shout...GET A HORSE!

Geico | 2020年2月25日

@Uncle Paul

Good point, a large reason for Europe's adoption of EV's is due to environmental and regulatory approval. It will also make Europe that much more expensive to live and further price them out of the world economy.

SamO | 2020年2月25日

Lol. Dude your 2012 talking points need some updates.

My second mOdel 3 cost $35,000 and cost $5 to fill up. Those fill ups are much easier since they occur in my garage.

My car is much cheaper than a comparable BMW 3 series and total cost of ownership is less than a Camry or accord.

More astroturfing bs from legacy lunatics.

jordanrichard | 2020年2月25日

Mabuck, if it wasn’t for regulatory intervention, cars wouldn’t have ABS, crumple zones, airbags, side impact bars, backup cameras, etc. etc. The car is the most regulated consumer product. | 2020年2月25日

Yep, Everyone wants ICE:
- They enjoy wasting time in the freezing cold or painful hot fueling up every week
- They like having to drive out of their way to fuel up each week
- They wonder at that sweet carcinogenic fueling fumes
- They love having to get oil and filter changes every 3 months
- They relish clunky engine and transmission noises
- They adore supporting middle east wars to ensure the cheap fuel supply
- They don't care about costs, as what's an extra $100 each week to drive around
- They prefer to drive around slowly with awful off-the-line performance
- They care nothing for the environment - who cares if we get cancer?
- They savor antiques, as all ICE are antiques when compared with great EVs
- They dig getting screwed by dealers

And you wonder why Tesla's production constrained and growing at 50% a year while most legacy car companies are in decline?

SamO | 2020年2月25日

He doesn't wonder. Not one bit. Dealerships are magic. Dealer service is magic, fun and cheap. Ford is the pinnacle of technology. The "big guys" only have to decide to move into the electric space and Tesla is finished. /s

GHammer | 2020年2月25日

"It is not a product that you could live solely on without making some type of sacrifice"

You cant make this as a blanket statement, for some people yes, not for all, certainly not me. I have not made a single sacrifice and both me and my wife agree our life is better with EV only. The situation is also improving, my daughter made the assumption she was going to have leave her 3 behind when she moved from a suburban house to a city apartment but no, all the apartments she looked at had ev charging, most of them free. | 2020年2月25日

I and many people I know live solely with an EV. Zero need for ICE. I can't think of a single reason I'd want to downgrade my life switching back to ICE. It seems to be true of most EV owners today - especially if the EV is a Tesla.

The most common thing I hear from EV owners that also have an ICE car is "the ICE hasn't been used in months. I need to get rid of it."

SamO | 2020年2月25日

You know what I’ve never heard?

“I’m switching back to ICE because it is so much better. Or convenient.”

Atom12 | 2020年2月25日

Is mabuck Anton?

SamO | 2020年2月25日

Or Mark Spiegel?

Yodrak. | 2020年2月25日

"So what are the drawbacks?

-Very expensive
-Charging times
-Less independent service centers
-Less flexibility for travel (finding DC fast chargers)
-overall more inconvenient"

Let's take this list in order:
- Yes, my Model S was very expensive, for me, but I didn't want to wait for a Mode 3. On the other hand, my used Nissan Leaf commuter car, bought 2-years old, was as inexpensive as any other commuter car and serves its purpose admirably.
- Charging time is insignificant. I'm either sleeping or busy on a taskwhen the cars are charging. Any time I need to use one they are both 80% charged, unlike my previous ICEVs, which required that I take time out from my task at hand to put fuel in them
- Who needs service? My Leaf has been in for service 3 times in the 5 years I've owned it, one of those times for new tires. My Model S has been in for service 1 time in the 2 years I've owned it, to get the HW3 upgrade and replace the hatchback glass that my wife cracked by allowing the garage door to close on it.
- No problem finding DC fast chargers when traveling, the Model 3 tells me which ones to stop at and which ones I can cruise on past. Trure, couldn't travel in the Leaf, fast chargers or not, but did I mention I bought it to be my commuter car?
- The ultimate in convenience - no need to go out of my way and take time to fuel them, and minimal need to service them. What could be more convenient?

Yodrak. | 2020年2月25日

Whoops, the Model S when traveling. I own an S, not a 3. But a 3 will also find the Tesla super chargers for you just like the S or X. And if one wants a change of pace for finding DC fast chargers, there are apps for that.

David N | 2020年2月25日

SamO | February 25, 2020
“Ford is the pinnacle of technology. The "big guys" only have to decide to move into the electric space and Tesla is finished. /s”

SamO, I got a good chuckle reading that.

David N | 2020年2月25日

“increased 2% in 2019 to a total of 2.1 million units. That isn’t a big enough market yet to justify procurement of huge battery plants.”

What are you talking about, several big auto manufactures already can’t get enough batteries for the small paltry numbers of EV’s they are supposed to be producing.
Huge battery plants are needed now.

Geico | 2020年2月25日

I don't know enough about the Battery market to understand the complexities of building a new plant, but as far as I'm aware of, for example, LG is going to operating 24/7 to make batteries at a Poland plant for Ford. If Ford had the demand for 300,000 a year, LG would need to have a joint venture with Ford and build a battery plant likely in the USA or Mexico.

From what I can tell, it appears to be that Tesla is the only auto manufacturer that has gone severely in debt trying to mass produce batteries at an affordable cost. They needed their auto sales and powerwalls to help push their economies of scale.

I may be wrong on this analysis. I'm no expert in that field.

Geico | 2020年2月25日

And I meant to add that Tesla had a joint venture with Panasonic under the same roof (gigafactory nevada) producing batteries for them.

This was being done at a huge loss for the first 5 or so years. The loss is not as bad now since economies of scale have picked up.

Again, could be wrong. But if Ford has demand for 300,000 / year Mach 3's I would be willing to bet they would have to have a similar joint venture with LG for example under the same roof.

Xerogas | 2020年2月25日

@mabuck, hindsight is 20/20. Back in 2007, nobody was saying that smartphones were superior. They were laughed at and considered overpriced and inferior at the time, by the establishment. That’s the point of my analogy. Today is the 2007 of cars, but most people don’t realize it yet.

Why don’t we need a $25,000 Tesla today? For the same reason we don’t need a $50 iPhone today. People are willing to pay more for value, and Tesla has established a new baseline price, just like Apple did.

Geico | 2020年2月25日

I understand Xerogas but your analogy is missing some key points.

Because the Iphone put a computer in your pocket that allowed you to answer emails, browse the web, listen to music, watch videos, etc all in one device. There was absolutely no down side or negative to the iphone other than the price, while increasing value 10x. Apple had itunes at the time and paring that in a phone was revolutionary. That alone was a show stopper for a lot of folks that use to carry around an ipod and a blackberry.

My Tesla has not increased what I would consider value proposition to go out and buy another one. In fact, in metrics such as refueling it is a much bigger inconvenience than people here are willing to admit. You can't pull into the gas station and in 5 minutes have a full battery in the middle of nowhere. You have to sacrifice to travel with a Tesla, relying on the trip planner to take you where you wanna go. How would a rental car fleet even operate on EV's? It's not possible.

The only saving grace to Tesla revolutionizing the Car industry is if they are the first to make level 5 FSD a reality. I don't think it's possible, and nothing is stopping them from putting that tech on an ICE.

Geico | 2020年2月25日

I live in an apartment. I have to rely on my work charger and a 120v outlet. I am barely getting by as is and there is no supercharger within an hour of me.

If I had an ICE, it would be about 100x more convenient for me. Now if I lost my job, I would likely need to sell my Tesla or move.

It's just not what people think it is at the moment, there is too many issues with an EV for growth to be as rapid as an iPhone.

There are 170,000 gas stations in America. There are 700 Tesla chargers and 400 EA fast chargers.

Xerogas | 2020年2月26日

It takes 3 seconds to plug in my Tesla when I get home. The same amount of effort I put into charging my cell phone each night. People who actually own Teslas know this. ICE vehicles take far more time out of my day to refuel.

There are more Tesla recharging stations in my kitchen than there are gas stations in my entire town. It’s a new paradigm.

Madatgascar | 2020年2月26日

We have three Teslas and one ICE, a 2007 Lexus hybrid. My son desperately tries to avoid driving the Lexus. It’s so much more work! But every so often he has to take it in to service, drive it around to keep the fluids running, get gas, whatever.

We take long family drives to see the grandparents in Arizona. Once I suggested we take the Lexus, to “save time.” Almost had a mutiny. Now we can make it all the way from LA to the state line, where there is a V3 Supercharger, and we would definitely need to stop for a meal. “You don’t save any time,” my son observed. He passed the IQ test.

Some people still don’t get it.

Yodrak. | 2020年2月26日

"I live in an apartment. I have to rely on my work charger and a 120v outlet. I am barely getting by as is and there is no supercharger within an hour of me."

I guess it sucks to be you. (sorry, couldn't help myself)

EVFamilyGrins | 2020年2月26日

You have some very interesting views, but I do not always understand them. I understand that an EV is not for everyone and living without access to charge at night poses additional challenges. You appear to be a fan of the Mach-E and based on the proposed specs it is intriguing and similar to a Telsa in features. I am skeptical of non-Telsa EV makers ability to meet their specs, since so far most have not delivered (but wish Ford best of luck).
Can you provide some information so I can better understand your views:
1) What type of Model 3 do you have? Are you able to charge to 80-90% everyday at home/work? And how far is work from home?
2) Charging – you complain about lack of Super Chargers in N). It does not appear that there are many non-Tesla DC fast chargers in NC either and they are in similar spots to the SCs. The Mach-E has same approx. same range and charging speeds as Model 3/Y, so why do you expect it would be a better experience with a Mach-E.
3) EV value - You said “My Tesla has not increased what I would consider value proposition to go out and buy another one”. What value does the Mach-E provide you, that you are willing to buy it but a not another Tesla?
4) Trips – what types of trips do you usually take where you find charging times and lack of fast chargers? Are you the type that wants to drive straight thru for 4-5hrs non-stop?
I am not trying to bash you, just understand your position more. Sometimes you appear anti-EV and other times have promoted EVs and offer good insights into some EV issues and solutions.

FYI – My first EV was a ’14 Prius plug-in and replaced in 2016 with a with a used ’14 P85. Added a Model 3 (for the wife) in 2018 and also upgraded the P85 for a 100D. We have been all EV for ~16 months and no regrets/issues. Model S does 20+K mile/year and 10K on the Model 3. A lot of day/overnight trips in the 200-500 mile range and never had any issues with charging time or finding SCs, but we are based in CT and like to stop every 2-3 hours to stretch legs and let dogs and everyone do their thing. I am very pro EV (not just Tesla). There are some very nice EVs out there, but due to range and charging networks view all other current EVs as only a second car or commuter car options.

jordanrichard | 2020年2月26日

"I live in an apartment. I have to rely on my work charger and a 120v outlet. I am barely getting by as is and there is no supercharger within an hour of me." Then perhaps you shouldn't have bought an EV?

Not everyone's living situation allows for them to buy everything they want.. If I wanted to buy a 45 foot motor coach, I couldn't because I have no place to put it on my property. If I wanted to buy/own a horse and have it at the house, I couldn't because of local zoning rules.

Geico | 2020年2月26日


The biggest advantage, and I have yet to make up my mind, is that a compelling Ford EV (Such as the Mach E) has three service centers close to me. I am not sure if I would go with a Mach E because I have other issues as I stated in my first post on this thread.

1) One of the biggest drawbacks to owning my Tesla Model 3 LR AWD is the fact that driving two hours to the nearest service center with no mobile service options is a major pain. And I can't call anyone, they did away with that. I've had to go to the service center three times in the last year and a half of ownership. I could go on and on in this subject.

2) The next biggest drawback is EV ownership, Like I stated it is a sacrifice. When I went to the mountains of NC, we rented a house. I couldn't rely on me charging my car in a wall outlet and then driving around town the entire day to only get 50-60 miles overnight. The nearest supercharger from Boone NC is over an hour away. It doesn't make much sense either to have to spend 45 minutes out of a 3 day vacation when your days are tightly scheduled to have to supercharge. The truck I took has a big fuel tank allowing us to drive 500 miles before empty.

In an ICE, you just get in an go. In a tesla, you have to plan the trip manually before you go. It's just not as relaxed as people make it out to be when you're doing a trip such as that.

I think with you living in CT you are covered pretty well with Tesla chargers. There are only 13 Tesla superchargers in my state. Majority of where I travel to doesn't have a SC, including where I live. I have to rely on my work charger every day and I just charge it to 90%. The wall outlet at my house gets me back to 90% overnight. I'm 30 miles from work.

Tropopause | 2020年2月26日

Ford to the rescue! Now Tesla can go home.

TabascoGuy | 2020年2月26日

@mabuck - you seem like an intelligent person, why do you keep making the wrong choices? Like every single one of them.

Geico | 2020年2月26日

I love the car and want the EV adoption to become more apparent. The reason I fell in love with my Model 3 is because of the amazing driving charasteristics, being sold on superchargers, and being sold on autopilot.

I made a post a while ago saying why the value proposition of Tesla didn't matter to me anymore after owning one. You realize that most of it is marketing hype.

Doesn't matter what EV I buy, still in the same situation although I don't want to go back to an ICE.

TabascoGuy | 2020年2月26日

You had me at "I love the car"...

TabascoGuy | 2020年2月26日

@mabuck - Serious question. You don't have mobile service available? I thought they would travel anywhere (in the US) that was outside of a certain distance from any SC.

Geico | 2020年2月26日


No It isn't, they wouldn't send the guy all the way out to me. I live two hours away from the service center.

Geico | 2020年2月26日

Website shows mobile service available in my area though, I believed that. Apparently I shouldnt have

GHammer | 2020年2月26日

"they wouldn't send the guy all the way out to me. I live two hours away from the service center."

Mobile techs dont usually come from the service center. They have them based all over depending on the market density. My mobile tech is based 3 hours away from the nearest service center (i'm in the middle about 1.5hours) and he also covers Alaska.

jimglas | 2020年2月26日

just flag the troll and move on

blue adept | 2020年2月26日


>>> "They have to add value to a customer. Where do EV’s add value?"

Depends, how much do you "value" your own life? What about the lives of your family, your friends?

dmm1240 | 2020年2月27日

"Smartphones were an improvement on existing technology, thus an easy transition. EV's are not an improvement in technology, it's a step back with charge times and charging convenience. With a very high barrier to entry, price. EV's still have a looong way of having to improve to become a clear advantage over ICE, whereas the smartphone was a clear improvement over a blackberry."

Good grief.

1. EVs aren't an easy transition? You drive them the same way. I let friends test drive my MX frequently and am still here. The tech is much better, though, just like the iPhone was a huge improvement over the Blackberry.
2. Know how often I've used a supercharger when I'm not on a trip in the 2.5 years I've owned a Tesla? ZERO. It's much more convenient to spend 15 seconds unrolling my wall mount and plugging the MX in once a week or so. Just as easy to unplug and roll it up the next morning. No more complicated than plugging in my electronic devices when I get ready for bed.
3. You really don't get it, do you? EVs are a huge step forward. They're more fun to drive, they're faster, and they don't break. Here are the problems I've had in 2.5 years: 1. Early on, the driver's window made a banging noise when I'd roll it up. Tesla fixed it by adjusting the trim. 2. I pushed the scroll wheel a little hard one day and broke it (a Mercedes made part btw). Tesla stopped by my house and fixed it. 3. I dropped my X off at a service center 15 miles from my house Monday, received a warning that something was wrong with the air conditioning. It was a worn out O ring, 50¢ part that Tesla replaced. Oh, and they gave me a loaner too, an 85D Model S.
4. The Tesla Model 3 is comparable in price to BMWs 300 series. My X was low six figures when it bought it in 2017. I could buy one today, two years later, for $18,500 less than I paid then and its range would be 91 miles higher. Oh, and it would be faster, too.

Where does my EV add value?
1. It's safer to drive. If I'm ever involved in a crash, the odds I'll survive with minor injuries are significantly higher than with the vast bulk of ICE cars.
2. I have not been inconvenienced by having to drop my car off or cool my heels waiting on a mechanic to change the oil because Teslas don't use oil. The effect on my electricity bill is negligible; stopping by gas stations to fill up once a week cost me $125 a month in the Honda I used to own. I don't worry about checking my antifreeze level every winter because there is no radiator. I gave away a nice pair of jumper cables yesterday to the plumber who installed a new water heater in my house because I'm cleaning out our storage room and have no use for them any more. Mobile service is great; easy and quick. Can't say that about an ICE dealership.
3. It cost ~$120 for my wife and I to update the navigation DVDs in our cars every year. Now? It costs zip.
4. You harp on and on about the inconvenience of charging taking too long. When I'm on a trip, Tesla superchargers are almost always located near a restaurant. We stop for lunch/dinner and rarely finish before the car is finished charging. If we're not hungry, using the bathrooms takes up about half the time. It's not that inconvenient now. It's becoming less inconvenient because in the past 2 years Tesla has added 3 superchargers along the routes we take most often cutting back on the stops we must make. IOW, owning an EV grows simpler and more convenient at a constant rate.

You sure you own a Tesla? If you do you're certainly not very good at it.

akgolf | 2020年2月27日

I like how the iPhone was a huge leap forward and no compromises, but with Tesla that dang charging is inconvenient.

I seem to recall my dumb phone holding a charge for days and carrying a portable battery with me in case I needed to recharge with the iPhone. It didn’t last days and it wasn’t very convenient, but it was the best at the time.

Sounds familiar.

Geico | 2020年2月27日


None of my ICE vehicles needed "maintence". I had a 2005 Chevy Colorado for 8 years, the only maintenance it needed was new spark plugs, oil, and window motors which had failed. I never took it in for recalls either.

I owned a Chrysler 200 after that for 5 years. Only issue in five years was radiator pump went bad. $250.

I think you tend to skew EV's as being better to own because you own one. For one, they haven't proved to be less maintenance over the long term. Just reading the Model S forums and MCU failures gives me shivers. $3000 to replace the screen and it's a common problem. Yikes.

You do realize that Tesla service also has the highest shop rates, even higher than diesel garages? No other independent shop will work on a Tesla unless you go to a rich rebuilds. Why is he so busy if these cars don't need maintenance?

With all my ice, I could take it to mom and pop mechanics that would charge $60 and hour vs $165 @ Tesla since you're screwed with service. Sure, if you wanna take the Apple model and use that excuse look at what they charge - so much money to fix devices that you're better off buying a new one. It's much cheaper to replace parts yourself, I replaced a battery in my macbook pro for $65. Apple wanted $250+ (can't remember it was in the $200s)

I could go on and on. But there is no point, you will believe what you want to believe. Majority of people see that as a major problem owning an EV.

Geico | 2020年2月27日

Wanna know what it cost to put new window motors in? Couple hundred bucks and my mom and pop shop. What about those spark plugs? That was another hundred or so bucks. Oil changes were $20 plus the oil.

It is dirt cheap to own an ICE. Tesla wanted to charge me $87 to just to evaluate a rattle that I had been in to service for 3 times now. Key word, evaluate. They didn't have enough sense to realize when I put repeat issue in the comments section (that was under warranty) - not to send me a bill prior to taking the car.

And guess what? It was the day before my appointment which is two hours away. With no one to call. Wow! Talk about terrible service and as such I canceled my appt and will deal with the rattle later.

I could go on and on!

akgolf | 2020年2月27日

I owned a 1982 Chevy. Bought new and dumped it after two years.

I never went on a trip over 200 miles were something didn’t break.

It constantly had issues starting. Constantly getting lectured by the helpful service department on how to correctly start the car. Apparently just turning the key to the start position wasn’t enough.

A coworker was asking me why I was getting rid of it after only two years because it was a nice looking car. The phone rang and my wife was going to miss her doctors appointment because the car wouldn’t start.

That will be the last Chevy product I will own.

My wife is currently driving the last ICE car we will own. Hopefully the other American auto manufacturers get their act together, but I’m not going to jump on their first model. Too risky.

Yeah ICE cars are really reliable. And the helpful ICE service centers are there because they want to help.

Geico | 2020年2月27日

Not even apple is stupid enough to not let you call someone for service appointments and issues. Apple is selling a $1,000 phone and $3,000 computers

Tesla on the Otherhand is selling $50,000-$150,000 vehicles and you can't call for any help on service. But yeah, they're gonna take over the world and be the new revolution!!