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Counteracting Chevy Bolt

Counteracting Chevy Bolt

While Chevrolet Bolt EV presents a new car with 238 miles range
Tesla model 3 should introduce an option of extended range battery (60 KWh)
for additional $3000 thus exceeding the Bolt range for a comparable price of the car.
Tad.

gregcropper | 2016年9月17日

Who can say that the Model ☰ won't have a better range than the Bolt once it's finally available for order? At the launch Elon said that the Model ☰would have a range of "at least" 215 miles. The Model ☰ is more aerodynamic than the Bolt with the same size battery. I don't know how the Model ☰ could have a lower range that the Bolt.

jordanrichard | 2016年9月17日

Ya, let's first let the Model 3 come out, then start rattling off a list of what it should have.

bernard.holbrook | 2016年9月17日

@gregcropper- The Model 3 is expected to have a smaller battery than the Bolt. If there batteries where the same capacity then yes, the lower CD car would have a longer range. The smaller battery is also keeping Tesla's cost down.

topher | 2016年9月18日

Tesla doesn't WANT to counteract the Bolt. They need the Bolt to succeed. What Tesla needs to do is get into an arms race with Chevy each trying to outdo each other in producing better, longer range, and most importantly MORE NUMEROUS electric vehicles.

Thank you kindly.

KP in NPT | 2016年9月18日

+1 Jordanrichard.

Tesla has not said what the exact range of the Model 3 will be. They only said "at least." If GM managed to cram 238 miles of range into the bolt, I would expect the Model 3 to at least meet if not exceed that. But I'll wait until it's actually revealed before I start saying what I needs to have.

TeslaTap.com | 2016年9月18日

I'm also 98% sure Tesla indicated there will be different battery sizes available on the 3 (but not what those sizes are or the added range). So those that need far more range can buy a more expensive 3 that has a larger pack. This is a far better solution as it covers a broad range of needs and pricing.

zakeeus | 2016年9月18日

That's 238 miles at an average speed of 40mph. A S85 is about 400 miles at that speed.

jordanrichard | 2016年9月18日

zakeeus +1 Chevy hasn't said how that 238 was derived. Though it is an official EPA number, but I don't know what speed they use to calculated it.

Tesla on their site lets to plug in whatever speed you want, to see what the range will be. All the range numbers listed by Tesla are cruising at 65 mph.

carlk | 2016年9月18日

No need to counteracting Bolt. BMW never needed to couteracting Malibu by increase size of the gas tank. When the much superior M3 comes out no one would care about the range long as it's reasonalbly high.

stevenmaifert | 2016年9月18日

Is there any reason to think that 238 number wasn't the product of the standard EPA 5 cycle test for electric vehicles?

georgehawley.fl.us | 2016年9月18日

Competition is good. Having GM endorse BEVs is good. I hope the Bolt is credible.
Tesla has a huge technological and experiential lead but they can't be complacent.

I hope lots of people buy M≡s and Bolts. Both companies and consumers will win.

EaglesPDX | 2016年9月18日

Chuckle...interesting mindset that a great new EV needs to be "counteracted".

As for the T3 range, we can look at the TS60/75 software upgrade for an example, 218 (T3 is 215) to 259 miles.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月18日
jordanrichard | 2016年9月19日

Red Sage, thanks for the link. So, the EPA test doesn't take temperature ie winter conditions into account. This would effect both EVs and gas cars. So any numbers derived from this EPA test are based on presumably a room temperature of say 70 degs.

makobill | 2016年9月19日

I would argue that Tesla doesn't need to do anything than produce the vehicle intended with options already in the works. They'll sell every one they can produce....

jamilworm | 2016年9月19日

@zakeeus "That's 238 miles at an average speed of 40mph. A S85 is about 400 miles at that speed."

Actually I'm not sure that's true. Apparently the EPA rating is an indicator of the range at 40mph, as it was for the Bolt at 238 miles. Well, the EPA rating for the S85 is 265 miles, not much more than the Bolt.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=37234

Also I'm not sure why you compared the sub $40k bolt to a mid level Model S. The S60 has an EPA range of only 210 miles.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38170

D.Lew | 2016年9月19日

I agree we want the bolt to succeed and competition is a good thing but some of you are missing the point the bolt only has one battery size and their starting price for it is higher than Tesla so Tesla can offer a lower battery for less money and a higher battery for more money and guess what in a year Chevy is stuck between the bast car for the money (Tesla 3 base model) and the bast car on the road (Tesla 3 Performance car) and if I'm right that would be a very bad place to be and Chevy better be lowing the price double time as some whispers seam to suggest.

D.Lew | 2016年9月19日

Best Car* twice. I am ashamed.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月19日

jordanrichard: That was just the introductory link. Within it are further details. Not so much 'weather', but there are temperatures test in the laboratory... Tests done at 20 degrees Fahrenheit, others done at 90 degrees Fahrenheit... Some tests done as a 'cold start' and others done when the car is considered 'warm'. It is pretty comprehensive. Certainly good enough for government work, I think...

www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

bxd20 | 2016年9月19日

Nothing about the 3 is finalized yet. It may beat the 238 EPA, or fall short. Nobody knows.

The EPA number for any EV, whether for Bolt or 3 or any other, is NOT a "best case scenario". A few independent magazines have now driven the Bolt over a preset course, that admittedly Chevy chose, in CA. It was a mix of two lane highway, interstate high speed, and city driving. Bolt has shown a real world range, in mild weather, of ~280 miles in those magazine reviews on that course. Both the 3 and Bolt will achieve over 300 miles of range driven at lower, city speeds, you can be certain of that.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月19日

bxd20: Actually, I have been checking periodically since these announcements began and the official numbers are now in and on the EPA's website... As of 10:26 am PDT, September 19, 2016:

http://www.fueleconomy DOT gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38187&id=37798&id=37470&id=37309

2017 Chevrolet BOLT
123 Combined MPGe
128 City MPGe
110 Highway MPGe
270 kWh per 100 miles
246 Miles Total Range

Impressive.

makobill | 2016年9月19日

Impressive indeed. I don't expect Tesla to sit on their backsides and ignore the data - not that they were anyway. Model 3 in base configuration will be over 250 - very confident in it...

Competition is great for the consumer. Tesla doesn't make slow cars, and won't be second place in range at entry level either. Just not going to happen....

Haggy | 2016年9月19日

Tesla doesn't have to ignore it and Tesla doesn't have to match it. Tesla has to make sure they can have a base model that comes out at the expected price and isn't devoid of features. It will have to have at least the range Tesla stated. Tesla has a lot of room to add packages beyond that. It might be that $2500 will buy you enough to match or beat the range of a Bolt. Or it might be that $3000 will do it and add supercharging. Or it might be something else We don't know.

People put down deposits knowing the minimum that the range might be, and people put down deposits not knowing what the car even looks like, much less what the range will be. People didn't cancel in large numbers when they found out about the range.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月19日

Oops! My bad. I didn't realize my browser had saved some 'Personalize' settings I was playing around with before... I set the form back to its defaults, and this is the result instead:

False alarm, and stuff. Still pretty OK.

PhillyGal | 2016年9月20日

@makobill +1 on this:

I would argue that Tesla doesn't need to do anything than produce the vehicle intended with options already in the works. They'll sell every one they can produce....

KP in NPT | 2016年9月20日

Just to clarify @EaglesPDX claim - the M3 range is not 215. It is AT LEAST 215. We do not know what the base pack range will be since it hasn't been announced yet.

stevenmaifert | 2016年9月20日

Until the base M3 undergoes the EPA testing, any statement of range (min, max or at least) is just a manufacturer's estimate. Tesla was advertising an estimated 300 mile range for the S85 right up to and beyond first deliveries. The EPA certified range turned out to be 265.

brando | 2016年9月20日

For fun and education, go to below link and scroll or page down to the
Range Per Charge
and down to
Charging Estimator

https://www.tesla.com/models

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月20日

stevenmaifert: What Tesla Motors ~*ahem*~ 'advertised' was 300 miles at a constant 55 MPH. The Model S 85 was indeed capable of doing precisely that.

stevenmaifert | 2016年9月20日

Red - Actually it was 60 mph. Not saying Tesla was misrepresenting the range, just pointing out it wasn't an "EPA certified" range which you really need to make fair comparisons. Presumably, each BEV is tested using the same criteria.

SamO | 2016年9月20日

NHTSA moved from a 2 cycle test where Tesla scored 300 miles of range, to a 5 cycle test where the Tesla scored 265 miles of range.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月20日

The EPA's website says they began to use the 5-Cycle Range Test with the 2008 model year... I have no idea why Tesla Motors was unaware of it. Maybe it was a slow roll-out?

Detailed Test Information
.
EPA tests vehicles by running them through a series of driving routines, also called cycles or schedules, that specify vehicle speed for each point in time during the laboratory tests.
.
For 2007 and earlier model year vehicles, only the city and highway schedules were used. Beginning with 2008 models, three additional tests are used to adjust the city and highway estimates to account for higher speeds, air conditioning use, and colder temperatures.
.
EPA has established testing criteria for electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids that are slightly different than those for conventional vehicles.

www.fueleconomy DOT gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

www.fueleconomy DOT gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml

www.youtube DOT com/watch?v=oeEy9xqFG_0

andy.connor.e | 2016年9月21日

Tesla will do this anyway. They estimated a minimum 215 miles per charge MORE than a year before its release date. At that time, the design was not even completed so it was a 100% estimated range. So say the base model was able to achieve 10% higher than their >1yr estimation. That leaves it at ~236mi per charge. BASE model gets 236 miles per charge. Look at Model S base model. Model S is more than just the parameters on its base model.

If estimated that Tesla has 3 battery pack options, the maximum range should be nearing 300 miles. Given that the Lithium Ion batteries chosen for the M3 packs were intended to maximize capacity density with the pack dimensions. That means M3 battery packs will be able to store more energy per unit of volume than the Model S. That give you a good sense that there should be some hefty pack options.

makobill | 2016年9月21日

250 in base configuration on the Model 3 - take it to the bank. (Not sure what you'll do at the bank, but by all means, take it there)

jordanrichard | 2016年9月21日

makobill, can I charge my car at this bank...... :-)

makobill | 2016年9月22日

Jordan - You betcha... That said, charging at home is probably more effective than.... oh well, you know... :)

jordanrichard | 2016年9月22日

makobill, that depends, do I get free toaster for opening an account at the bank......? :-).

Haggy | 2016年9月22日

jordanrichard,

Come on. Nobody is old enough to remember when banks did that.

Red Sage ca us | 2016年9月22日

Haggy: I'm old enough to remember old-timers talking about when banks did that...

jordanrichard | 2016年9月23日

Haggy, ya, I actually don't personally remember that either. I got that from movies made in the 50's or so.

Though in recent times I have seen banks entice people with free MP3 players to open an account.

makobill | 2016年9月23日

I can remember people remembering older people talking about it. You wait and see - it will come back! Although, I'm not sure how an online bank gets you a toaster. Maybe Amazon via drone delivery upon successful signup. Unfortunately, that means you won't be 'taking it to the bank' which destroys my entire them I had going here.... What were we talking about again?

makobill | 2016年9月23日

entire theme....not them...

ccsccs7 | 2016年9月23日

Banks give away money now. Much more practical. Then you can buy the toaster you want. :D

Haggy | 2016年9月25日

I actually do remember when banks did that. Then they would stamp your passbook with a message that you can't withdraw the money for a year. It went out of style in the very early 1970s. I don't remember seeing it after 1972, and it might have been a few years before that.

EaglesPDX | 2016年9月28日

@makobill "250 in base configuration on the Model 3 - take it to the bank."

More likely Tesla will stick to the stated 215 and use the software upgrade to 250 on the T3 to maximize profit as
It is doing with the "discount" TS60 which starts at 218. Musk hinted at this by saying most of the T3's will sell at $42,000 which would be the software range upgrade.

The Bolt's 238 is a respectable and practical range.

makobill | 2016年9月28日

Interesting thought and I've thought all along the $42K referenced was around range - but had it in my head it was battery size. I hope that the upgrade gets you north of 250, for selfish reasons. I've got family that live in the middle of nowhere in SE OK - and not enough supercharger to make that work in the works....

jamilworm | 2016年9月28日

@Eagles, they may do both. Set base model at 250 and offer software upgrade to 300. Hey, it's possible.

EaglesPDX | 2016年9月28日

@jamilworm "@Eagles, they may do both. Set base model at 250 and offer software upgrade to 300. Hey, it's possible."

Not likely. I think Tesla had a good idea of what they were going to do when making the announcement and building the prototypes. Especially now when they have committed to cranking out 500,000 T3's by 2018. Basically have to build one car and that will be the T3 215. The upgrade might offer in the range of 300 if its possible for low cost, mass production with one battery but they can't be offering physically different batteries as it would require a lot of extra production time and lots of new parts and builds, not something they can do when going all out for 500,000 cars.

The base will stay at 215 to encourage the range upgrade whatever it might be.

KP in NPT | 2016年9月28日

Again, speculation. Stated as fact.

dsvick | 2016年9月28日

@EaglesPDX - "but they can't be offering physically different batteries as it would require a lot of extra production time and lots of new parts and builds"

By your logic then they can't offer any other options either, like sound package, leather seats, cold weather package, or different roofs.

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