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OT Political Thread. Not for Tender Sensibilities. You've Been Warned.

OT Political Thread. Not for Tender Sensibilities. You've Been Warned.

Pity the Sad Legacy of Barak Obama

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/barack-obama-legac...

If TL;dr, here is the condensed version:

The age of Barack Obama may have been our last chance to break from our neoliberal soulcraft. We are rooted in market-driven brands that shun integrity and profit-driven policies that trump public goods. Our “post-integrity” and “post-truth” world is suffocated by entertaining brands and money-making activities that have little or nothing to do with truth, integrity or the long-term survival of the planet. We are witnessing the postmodern version of the full-scale gangsterization of the world.

The reign of Obama did not produce the nightmare of Donald Trump – but it did contribute to it. And those Obama cheerleaders who refused to make him accountable bear some responsibility.

In March 2009, Obama met with Wall Street leaders. He proclaimed: I stand between you and the pitchforks. I am on your side and I will protect you, he promised them. And not one Wall Street criminal prosecution.

US drone killings continue with no accountability.

Lack of support for BLM or Palestinians.

2/3 wealth growth to the top 1%

Support for Bloomberg stop and frisk and Rahm Emanuel's everything, with zero accountability

Demonizing dissidents like Snowden, Sterling and Manning

Obamacare is a Heritage Foundation, pork laden, corporate giveaway with 20M still uninsured.

A record 2.5 million deportations.

Bernie was punk'd by the DNC

The DNC is corrupt and doesn't fight for regular people

++++++++++++++++

I'm in agreement. After the last election the RNC at least went through the motions of trying to figure out why they were losing elections. Now, it's Russian hackers and Bernie, who subverted democracy instead of odious policies that demand corporate fealty.

Get a clue DNC and democratic politicians who ignore the will of the people at their peril. Go watch idiocracy to see our future when good men and women see wrong, and do nothing.

And lest you think I support our Orangutan-in-Chief, he will be covered in another post.

+++++++++++++++++

Update 9/9 The Best Case For Bernie.

https://www.salon.com/2019/09/09/dear-bernie-heres-how-you-can-still-win...

sabbia | 2019年9月14日

I meant @NKYTA

SCCRENDO | 2019年9月14日

@Sabbia. 68% of people are within 1 SD of the Bell Curve. The other 32% are Trump supporters. Actually not. But this should confuse them
@Blue Adept. I am not sure we have any disagreement. I agree that we need to provide opportunity by retraining those doing menial labor. But we do not need to hold back automation or continue environmentally unfriendly jobs to help them. It is far better to give them welfare if there is no way to accommodate them.

blue adept | 2019年9月16日

@sabbia

Though your comment was actually meant for @NKYTA, I also agreed with your assessment of the situation because you're taking into consideration the fact that the cognitive dissonance occurring in our country isn't limited to a particular social/economic strata or intelligence level and though I honestly believe everyone can learn no matter their lot in Life, I'm finding myself regrettably forced to realize that some simply do not want to be it because they've just given up and have reconciled themselves to just taking the BS or others among us who're selfishly working to maintain the status quo because it is to their favor.

sabbia | 2019年9月17日

Thanks @blue.

One of the challenges we have is understanding the unshakable 35% or so of Americans who think an unstable, indecent, intellectually non-curious, narcissistic president is okay provided that president pokes his finger in the eye of "the man."

Despite the complaints that appear here from time to time that this is a "car forum" and it shouldn't be used for discussions on the human condition this forum does help elucidate the mindset of that 35%.

I'll recap. Hadron responds to a comment that his deliberate misspelling of President Obama's name invokes Islamophobia. His response is to post a link to a racist set of purported data by a white supremacist group.

Uncle Paul responds to a post about compassion for the least among us by exposing his view that such compassion will take hospital beds away from his ilk.

Tesla2018 responds to just about anything by demonstrating morbid distaste for crying babies. If that weren't enough Tesla2018 posts homophobic, anti-Semitic, Islamophobic material that he excuses as a "joke." Tesla forum moderators had the good sense to take it down.

I think Elizabeth Warren agrees with both of us:

"As bad as things are, we have to recognize that our problems didn’t start with Donald Trump . . . . He made them worse, but we need to take a deep breath and recognize that a country that elects Donald Trump is already in serious trouble.”

jimglas | 2019年9月17日

go Lizzie!

rxlawdude | 2019年9月17日

I'm continuing to see her as the best candidate to take on Trump.

Joe is just making me too damn nervous with his brain farts.

Neomaxizoomdweebie | 2019年9月17日

You think that contrived beer with her husband wasn’t worse than a brain fart?

jimglas | 2019年9月17日

beer is NEVER contrived

SamO | 2019年9月17日

Still idiotically chasing phantom electability?

Some suckers never learn.

#FeelTheBern

Neomaxizoomdweebie | 2019年9月17日

@jimglas,
If she had been sipping a single malt neat and belted out an authentic “god I love this stuff” I’d have already switched R to D on my voting fun pass.

NKYTA | 2019年9月17日

Yang needs to work with Bernie now as VP - time to shake up the cycle.

rxlawdude | 2019年9月17日

@SamO, perfection is the enemy of good. Are you staying home if Bernie is not the candidate? Would you cut your nose off to spite your face?
In other words, if you don't get your way you'll pick up your marbles and go home?

NKYTA | 2019年9月17日

I doubt it.

SamO | 2019年9月18日

Seriously? Don’t nominate some fucking centrist asshole and you’ll never have to find out how many people will stay home.

Oh wait... we know how many will stay home. 45% of voters didn’t vote in 2016.

I suggest you start trying to shame each of them. And soon

Or ...you could nominate the popular guy that has 20,000 people show up to a cornfield in Iowa. Who has beaten Trump in the last 20 pollls and 29 out of 30 polls since 2015.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/d0vw1j/in_29_out_of_30_po...

SamO | 2019年9月18日

Last 29 of 30 polls

andy.connor.e | 2019年9月18日

We can elect beer? This could be a good election after all.

PrimeTime | 2019年9月18日

Without invective, can someone explain 1972 when Nixon beat George McGovern by carrying 49 states?

This is a serious question intended to get at understanding the uber confidence of those who think Dems don't need to nominate someone who is, perhaps not a centrist, but someone with whom the electorate in comfortable.

PrimeTime | 2019年9月18日

s/b with whom the electorate is comfortable.

SamO | 2019年9月18日

Without invective, can you explain in 2000 when Gore lost to Bush?
Without invective, can you explain in 2004 when Kerry lost to Bush?
Without invective, can you explain in 2016 when Clinton lost to Trump?

This is a serious question intended to get at understanding the uber confidence of those who think Dems need to nominate someone who is, a centrist?

Obama ran far to the left of Clinton in 2008 and then governed as a Republican.

SamO | 2019年9月18日

Or perhaps you can explain how FDR ran and won 4 terms for president on the most progressive platforms in the history of the United States?

jimglas | 2019年9月18日

didn't want to change horses in the middle of the stream?

rxlawdude | 2019年9月18日

2000 when Gore lost to Bush - bad ballot design in a Florida county led to votes intended for Gore to go to a third party candidate

2004 when Kerry lost to Bush - Swift Boat lies got legs.

2016 when Clinton lost to Trump - Comey's October Surprise, failure of the candidate to visit swing states, failure of the candidate to engender much enthusiasm other than potentially being the first female President.

rxlawdude | 2019年9月18日

"Obama ran far to the left of Clinton in 2008 and then governed as a Republican."

No, he had the recalcitrant Congress to deal with, especially starting in 2011 with the Teatards.

SamO | 2019年9月18日

ha ha ha I think you almost might believe that.

Look at the bankers he put in his cabinet. Look at his agreements in principle to cut social security. look at his big expansion of fossil fuel extraction. look at the bailouts and drone strikes.

ninja please.

NKYTA | 2019年9月18日

@SamO, what do you think about Bernie announcing Yang as running mate NOW? And Yang won’t make the next debate, so why not?

I’m hoping that it isn’t the only way Bernie can win the nom, but that would certainly shake up the polls early, no?

I’m not a democratic strategist, by any stretch of the imagination.

SCCRENDO | 2019年9月18日

It is not wise to chose a running mate yet. A running mate is usually chosen to help win over a group or demographic that the candidate may have difficulty winning over. Win the primary before you need to firmly define your election strategy. I still don’t understand the magic of Yang. Who or what will he bring that Bernie cannot.

blue adept | 2019年9月19日

@SCCRENDO

Just a misunderstanding then as I, too, feel that we should move forward with automation while eliminating environmentally damaging/destructive jobs, but with a cautious eye towards displacing that segment of our workforce that would man those positions by retraining them with skill-sets that meet current and future technological aptitude which, BTW, contradicts your suggestion of "retraining those doing menial labor".

Specifically what I have a discrepancy with, an existential one at that, is your suggestion to provide a stipend or 'living wage', "welfare" as you say, to those who're displaced as a result.

We already have a welfare state, we do not need a welfare nation comprised of those who've been displaced by our desire to advance our society by developing and adopting new technologies intent on making everyone's lives better as that would only serve to devolve our society into a two class system of the haves and the have-not's who're subsisting off of the philanthropy of the 'haves' where it was never intended for only a few to achieve the very best we had to offer while the rest are forced to reconcile themselves to making do with charity.

Why can we not ensure that all boats rise with the tide?

People require purpose, motivation, incentivization, hope that they can live a better life than those who've gone before them, hope that they can give their children better lives than the ones they had.

Everyone needs 'purpose' and deserve the opportunity to make do for themselves, to make their own way in Life which enables them to believe in themselves.

We've made great strides over the centuries in improving our living conditions, abundance of resources, health, education and livelihoods while our socio-cultural sensibilities have markedly deteriorated largely due in part to the disparity generated by the lack of access to a variety of resources many of us take for granted because they are priced out of the economic means of many.

It would be incredibly narrow minded to fail to realize that it would be mutually beneficial if everyone were to have access to the same level of opportunities so they could realize the same levels of achievement. Look at it like this, we're able to realize that Life distributes talent evenly across the globe, but not opportunity.

This is because it is not for Life to do for us but for us to do for others to ensure that we're all on the same page and are able to ascend to the same levels of achievement to avoid the creation of divisiveness, classism and even tribalism we're dealing with today.

You can think of it as a bit of altruistic reciprocity, but it's really just some of that plain, every day common sense that doesn't seem to be so 'common' anymore these days, but clearly needs to be.

So no, don;t give them "welfare", provide them with the opportunity to do for themselves.

blue adept | 2019年9月19日

@sabbia

You're welcome.

It's just an irony that "the man", and the one 'poking' him in the eye, are actually one in the same, just different sides of the same coin. Alas, all cults have their fanatical followers.

Yes, the dissonance does seem to have invaded even this forum like a virus that is spreading.

I'm sorry, though I've seen the name referenced a number of times I don't know who this "Hadron" person is (???), though I do agree with your assessment of the other characters on this forum.

blue adept | 2019年9月19日

(cont.)

@sabbia

Yes, this country has had issues developing for a while now that have all seem to of came to a head and personified with the election of Trump, highlighting the reality that it is an endemic problem that can only be solved by rooting out all of the embedded rot (all of those 2 and 3+ term Senators) that has afflicted this country's governmental hierarchy so we can get rid of the "old dog" club and get some fresh blood in there who aren't beholden to the ideals of yesteryear.

SCCRENDO | 2019年9月19日

@Blue adept. I think in a sense we are probably have similar thoughts. I believe in retraining every one we can. However those that cannot be retrained need some source of livelihood. There may be limited extra jobs that can be created that pay dividends. Some of the “menial” jobs such as fruit picking are likely to be replaced by machines. I guess those that remain will be the source of future immigration conflict. Employers will need to provide a living wage which presently seems to be $15 an hour. Otherwise this will continue to encourage illegal immigration. And while they remain “illegal” they will end up with no labor protections and poor wages

blue adept | 2019年9月19日

@SCCRENDO

Yes, we seem to be fairly similarly minded with but a few exceptions/distinctions here and there likely because I, being an optimist, have the tendency to believe in our ability, as a species, to overcome whatever odds against us and our inherent will to succeed, initially to prove something to ourselves and eventually to provide for ours.

To that end it is worth noting that not all of those hundreds of thousands of jobs that are currently outsourced overseas to other countries are environmentally harmful, destructive or damaging (take motherboard fabrication for example) and could prove to be a great resource for job creation here in the U.S. where their mother companies are based.

And you're conflating again...

Why bring "immigration" into a discussion about American-based jobs? Why cannot Americans pick fruit?

And I don't see employers being all that inclined to providing a source of income to those who're not under their employ just so they can keep using cheaper foreign labor? Afterall, isn't the goal of using foreign labor being able to enjoy the ability of pocketing more of the proceeds from the sale of the goods that are harvested or produced or manufactured?

SCCRENDO | 2019年9月19日

Imported labor particularly if illegal is usually cheaper increasing profits. I am also generalizing to a certain degree. I didn’t say all foreign labor was environmentally unsound. But we need to address the labor that is. Also foreign labor needs to be paid a living wage which may off course be less than the USA

david.biron | 2019年9月19日

Edward Snowden for President. He has demonstrated that no matter what the personal cost, he is willing to do whatever is right for the American people. If that is not integrity, I don't know what is . Of the people , by the people, for the people... go Edward... Our country will be great again when it allows Edward Snowden to return to his birthplace and assume a leadership role. Step #1, full disclosure of all secret programs. Freedom is nothing more than an illusion as long as the public is kept in the dark ! National Security is a week excuse for keeping secrets from those you are trying to serve.

SCCRENDO | 2019年9月19日

I guess I still can understand the need for some government secrecy but it definitely is abused.

blue adept | 2019年9月19日

@SCCRENDO

All along I've been referring to bringing back all of the jobs that have been outsourced/EXported (not "imported") overseas to other countries to fill the gaps in the middle class labor market and you throw in "foreign labor" out of left field, introducing a whole other topic of conversation that is peripheral to what we've been talking about!

Talk about moving the goal posts...

What the hell?!

Our issues with the middle class (the 'menial labor' sector of our workforce) could be, I feel, largely resolved were we to repatriate all of the jobs that our companies have "off shored"/sent overseas, helping to close the wealth gap as a result, has been the whole point of my side of the discussion and NOW you want to talk about the illegal immigrant labor force?!?

Well, I feel that it would be exponentially more beneficial for everyone concerned were we to help them develop their own stable, labor-based economy to buttress and stabilize their nation's economic standing in the world and instill a greater sense of pride in their populace by allowing them to become accomplished and successful on their own through the efforts of their own hard work at their businesses and companies established in their home country(s).

Plus it would help to avoid confusion over thus manufactured wage disparity issues between our diverse economies and undermine the greed oriented motivations of those American-based employers who'd prefer to exploit others at the sacrifice of fellow Americans who're, themselves, looking for work but can't find any because of employers exploiting a desperate foreign resource for their own selfish gain despite whatever impact it might have on the populace of their own country.

blue adept | 2019年9月19日

@david.biron

Not so fast...

I think you're overlooking just how easily someone could be exploited, either forcefully or through bribery, into exposing critical information about our nation's security much the same as I feel you're overlooking the fact that the so-called "spy game" has been the S.O.P. for governments for, literally, centuries as a means of maintaining the integrity of their sovereignty and the safety of their peoples from the threat of rival nations/factions.

And yet you want to idolize Snowden who, by all indications, operated as a deep-cover "sleeper agent" / "mole" for the Russian government by infiltrating both the CIA and the NSA to expose counter-intelligence surveillance information!?!

I. Can't. Even.

Are you just "trolling" or something?

SamO | 2019年9月19日

@NKYTA,

I’d support a Sanders/Yang ticket but I think he’ll need the Warren delegates. Chess v checkers

@blue,

Please post some evidence of Snowden being anything other than s whistleblower.

SCCRENDO | 2019年9月19日

@blue adept. I am totally ok with leaving many of the jobs offshore. We have to be careful about generalizing because we are likely talking about many different kinds of jobs. Call centers can remain in India where they are pretty efficient and far cheaper. Multinationals like Tesla, Apple etc can remain multinational. Perhaps they need to pay more taxes on overseas earnings.

andy.connor.e | 2019年9月19日

If labor is shipped overseas, there better be an incentive for this country and not just the corporations cost cuts. All the factory jobs go overseas, and the only thing left in America is retail and office work.

SCCRENDO | 2019年9月19日

Labor has already been shipped overseas. The question is whether it is worthwhile trying to bring it back. I say no. Let us create cleaner and better jobs here.

andy.connor.e | 2019年9月19日

If people are looking for jobs, someone has to make them. It cant fall on government, because then thats just higher government spending. Good thing we have Musk who is making multiple companies that employs some 60,000 people and still growing exponentially.

SCCRENDO | 2019年9月19日

Exactly. We need more companies like Musks multiple companies, Amazon, Apple etc. We need to fund R&D and encourage foreigners to bring their expertise not deny them H visas. We need to subsidize education and continue to allow foreigners to come in and study although let them subsidize their costs. A lot of the above industries may need reform and that is fair enough. A lot of the Dems want to tax them more. That needs to be balanced. They need to be incentivized to keep their jobs here and taxed more on foreign earnings that are kept offshore. Exact details I will leave to economists but I do not believe tariffs are the answers. I believe we do need a fairer playing field should be negotiated but not to fight stupid trade wars.

andy.connor.e | 2019年9月19日

Granted, the longer we dont tax imported goods that were manufactured using labor that was shipped overseas, the more companies are going to do that. And eventually the U.S will just be a nation of consumption that produces nothing. While living wages are good for quality of life, all the jobs cant just be office jobs and retail. Those will quickly be phased out by automation.

TabascoGuy | 2019年9月19日

...two more Gigafactories in the states after the one in Europe should help.

rxlawdude | 2019年9月19日

"Why cannot Americans pick fruit?"

Because, apparently, they don't WANT to do intensely physical work for minimum wage.

Farmers in the South, after Trump started threatening rounding up illegals, were left with fields of rotting crops, because the migrant workers skedaddled.

rxlawdude | 2019年9月19日

"Call centers can remain in India where they are pretty efficient and far cheaper."

Because getting help from someone with limited English skills reading a script is so much better than having an American do it? You need to call more customer "support" lines that utilize these foreign call centers.

andy.connor.e | 2019年9月19日

Farming requires innovation and/or automation for future growth. Europe is doing well at that.

sabbia | 2019年9月19日

@Blue. You ask who Hadron is. Hadron started as a somewhat innocuous climate denier then posted some racist material (see, for example, https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/arctic-temperature-data?page=8.).

Who Hadron is is unimportant.

SCCRENDO | 2019年9月19日

@rxlawdude. They speak great English in India. Arguably better than a lot of Americans. They are following scripts just like any dumbass American in customer service with far less attitude. I have used tech support from
India, Malaysia, the Philippines etc. I and my nurses can tear our hair out trying to deal with HMOs. Perhaps Elon could solve some of his customer service issues by outsourcing it.

rxlawdude | 2019年9月19日

Perhaps I was inartful in using the term "limited English skills." The issue is low bandwith VOIP and heavy accents.

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