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6-9 month AWD delay = no $7500? No HUD, 75kwh = ? miles

6-9 month AWD delay = no $7500? No HUD, 75kwh = ? miles

So first off I love Tesla. Young married with a 10 month old and only make combined 80k a yr and I have come to the conclusion that to get the $7500 u basically have to have a tax liability of $7500 or greater nothing else maters. So we just filed and we only had about $5000 so we are going to try to make more money to get full by next years filling to get all the $7500. I live in Montana, last year it got 22 below zero and we have real winters here every year. With bad roads not plowed several feet sometimes or paved and REAL mountains around here So 2nd most important option behind larger battery, which I calculated I need at the very least 265miles was going to be AWD. RWD doesn't work here for about 5 months out of the year regardless of ice engine up front rwd can make you veer off the road. I am a professional driver and have been driving for the last 20 years both for pleasure and work. Now I did order the second online started taking orders before he started the unveiling. So I was hoping I would still get the full $7500 before next phase out to 50% but with awd being delayed about 6-9 months I HIGHLY doubt I could get the $7500. Also like many I wasn't really impressed with how OVERLY simple the interior was and that glass, although nice might suck for privacy and sunlight. I was also hoping for HUD like many others. I do have a prius and understand that looking slightly off to the right is different but not a deal breaker but still its safer to look straight ahead. I think basic required info maybe could fit in the black stripe. Also an open steering wheel would only cause accidents. Any (NEW) inputs including speculations on the AWD delay and how it relates to the $7500 and the 75k rwd and awd range and basic required mph location would be appreciated!! Thanks

Carl Thompson | 2017年3月29日

Hi, purdy007boy. I mean no disrespect but I don't think you can afford to buy a Tesla right now. You have a wife and a new baby and you only make 80k a year. Even if you stretch your payments over 6 years the options you need (larger battery and AWD) and no others will likely put your payment near $700 with good credit. And it gets very cold in Montana. Cold weather significantly decreases the range of electric vehicles especially if you want to use the cabin heater. Even the 75kWh battery won't give you near 265 real-world miles on cold winter days. My advice would be to stick with your Prius until it breaks.

Carl

SoFlaModel3 | 2017年3月29日

I'm with Carl. I'm 32, married with 2 kids, and while I'm excited about the Model 3, if it in anyway jeopardized my family's future it wouldn't be the car for me.

Now as an aside, if you do go forward and get the $7,500 credit but has a lower tax liability you still get the credit and it just caps at the amount of your tax liability.

When did you place your reservation?

purdy007boy | 2017年3月29日

"I did order the second online started taking orders before he started the unveiling" mentioned above. Also I have 12k saved up. and as a family we have zero debt besides house

hsuru4u | 2017年3月29日

i say wait a few years. Its still young and much can change and happen. Dont buy into the whole model 3 hype yet. Let it get released and test drive one a few times and test drive other options and compare. There will be plenty of cars avail in the next 2 years and the tech will change dramatically as will prices. No rush. Let others be the beta testers. Someone in your situation cant afford to make a wrong move this huge if it so ends up this way. I still like the variety of gasoline cars because i prefer the older cars myself. I think the best thing car companies can do is just start using engineering to make the gas milage of a car now go way up.Dont have answers on that but if they could start making gas engine cars that get 50-100mpg..imagine that.

SoFlaModel3 | 2017年3月29日

That's good.

Not sure on cost of living in Montana. This actually not my businsss, so if you think to good for you definitely go for it.

Timing wise you are probably good for a credit that maxes out your liability if it's less than $7,500 assuming there are no slips. Holding out for AWD may see your credit slip to $3,750....

purdy007boy | 2017年3月29日

@hsur4u that DipS**t tRump will remove the requirement for automakers to make more efficient cars!!

mntlvr23 | 2017年3月29日

If you have unplowed roads several feet deep, a sedan is not gonna cut it for you.
If you have a Prius and it works for you where you live, then a more balanced and heavier RWD Tesla with snow tires will do even better.
Then again, a professional driver probably knows these things.

Badbot | 2017年3月29日

OP go to human resources and remove 1 dependent then withholding drops $2000

SoFlaModel3 | 2017年3月29日

@Badbot, adjusting his withholding does not increase his tax liability. It simply means he takes home more pay on his check. That's potentially bad advice here.

tstolz | 2017年3月29日

Consider all costs and benefits that matter ... not just purchase price.

Fuel is 1/3 gas ... very little maintenance, M3 will last longer, safety, driving pleasure, utility, environment, self driving future, etc.

purdy007boy | 2017年3月30日

badbot soflamodel3 is correct the only thing that matters is your total income that effects your tax liability. I have heard you can take a ira and turn it into a roth which is looked like as income which could raise it but dependents doesn't do it :( / mntlvr23 I can get around almost anywhere in Montana with my prius mainly because I know the finer points of how to drive in winter. Heck Ive never even bought snow or studded tires. its really all about human interaction that determines your safety. Unless its like over 2.5 ft of unplowed snow or a steep hill. but that's mostly with fwd and awd and 4wd but rwd changes the dynamics completely. im assuming i'll be 100% fine regardless but awd does provide a little more safety and also better for launching the car :) I might just buy it right away with highest battery available and maybe not AP and get an AWD 75kwh in a year or 2 or the Y that way more bugs will be worked out :) I agree with you also on thinking it will be at 50% when awd is available :(

JeffreyR | 2017年3月30日

@purdy007boy Teslas do not need AWD to perform well in the snow. Plenty of RWD cars as sold in snowy Norway. Search for "snow" under updates:
https://www.tesla.com/search/updates/snow

Also the reason to reduce the taxes taken out of your paycheck is that you will be getting a credit. So instead of getting a big return you pay less through the year. Your tax person can do the math to see what makes sense for you.

It's not clear where the 6-9 month delay starts. The day of the tweet or the day of the release. Elon still thinks most line-waiters will still get full credit even if they wait for 'P' and 'D' versions.

A M3-75 will get about 20% more range than a MS-75. Totally pulled that out of thin air, but lots of reasons to use that for your estimates:
- Weight
- Coefficient of Drag Cd
- Frontal area
- Smaller tires

I'm pretty sure I'll wait for the 'D' but I live in San Jose and waited in line. The only bonus I'm missing is previous owner.

Badbot | 2017年3月31日

Prepaying by withholding his liability is more than his refund.
so by lessoning his prepay to allow him to be short by the tax break or more allows the full amount to be written off.

dd.micsol | 2017年3月31日

YUP to OP - major bummer. I expected 85% battery charge of mdl S-elon has limited it to 75kw.
Not good enough for me. The 100d S will be my 3rd tesla car, hopefully my last.

SoFlaModel3 | 2017年3月31日

@dd - enough already. Aren't you bored telling everyone about these Model S's. I mean seriously enough is enough.

noleaf4me | 2017年4月1日

Purdy - 6-9 months may still make you eligible for the credit -- as noted it may drop to $3750 but that may still work for you. If the AWD is a must, then hold out and hope....

Bighorn | 2017年4月1日
KP in NPT | 2017年4月1日

Lmao @bighorn.

Sofla he also has a 90D yet can't see private posts owners normally do, he teaches at MIT, he runs a hedge fund, he has Elon and Franz on speed dial, he buys and sells multi millions in TSLA (usually buys high, sells low.) LOL!

SoFlaModel3 | 2017年4月1日

I know.... it's just tarnishing the forum.

jman | 2017年4月1日

suggestion.....we have a Model S 70D and I put $$ from sale of car, some savings, and tax credit $ we were going to get as a down payment....all that cut down the monthly costs. If I were you I wouldn't put the entire 12K toward the car, use like 4 or 5, sell Prius, take a loan out for what tax credits you will get back and plop that ALL down and the monthly amount will be somewhat reasonable for you. You will in the end get a hell of a vehicle in the Model 3 and if not AWD go with snow tires and it will surely be a beast in the snow !!! We didn't put snow tires on our 70D and have 37K miles on the original tires.

EaglesPDX | 2017年4月1日

up

EaglesPDX | 2017年4月2日

75 kWh would be 262 miles at a top 3.5 miles per kWh.

carlk | 2017年4月2日

Like many said even RWD can handle snow better than any ICE cars because electric traction control works much better than mechanical one which has a long feed back delay loop. Tesla has sold a lot of AWD S in Norway in early years. In your situation just get the base 3 and tax credit. You're still young you can always get a better and/or better optioned one later. This actually should work out perfect for you.

Carl Thompson | 2017年4月2日

I've actually had many RWD cars (2 VWs, 3 BMWs) and used to live in an area that got snow and ice. I never had any trouble with any of them so I think their problems are a bit overblown. My cars were all pretty light though. You just need to know how to safely drive in the snow or ice (that's true for all cars even AWD).

I'm certain the Model 3 will perform just fine in such conditions for any careful driver.

Carl

Civicrick | 2017年4月2日

Yeah the VWs have the engine weight over the drive wheels. Bighorn pointed out to me that the batteries weigh down the rear drive wheels on the 3s helping out that electronic traction control

PhillyGal | 2017年4月2日

@Carl Thompson - Don't tell someone what they should or shouldn't do with their money.
For all you know they make $80k but already own their house outright and plan to pay cash for the Model 3.

JeffreyR | 2017年4月2日

You can read and watch about how great Teslasmdrive in the snow here:
https://www.tesla.com/search/updates/Snow

Remember the battery size is important, but in the end the instant torque quickness will feel great compared to 3-Series and C Class. Also, the resulting range is what's important. The M3-75 should go farther than the MS-75.

reed_lewis | 2017年4月2日

The tax credit takes away from your total tax owed to the government. Even if you withhold twice as much as you have to pay in taxes in a year, unless you owe the federal government for the $7500 in taxes in a year you will NOT get the full $7500 back from them.

The form that determines what the amount of your credit is form 8936 You take the $7500 (line 18) and then subtract from it the amount of tax you have to pay for the year (IRS Form 1040 Line 47) (before any concept of what you had withheld even comes into play). If the amount of your tax you have to pay is less then $7500, you get only that amount back.

Here are the forms: EV Form: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8936.pdf
1040 Form: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf

Sorry, but I deal in facts, not opinion.

reed_lewis | 2017年4月2日

@Badbot You are completely wrong. See my above post.

Carl Thompson | 2017年4月2日

PhillyGal
"Don't tell someone what they should or shouldn't do with their money. For all you know they make $80k but already own their house outright and plan to pay cash for the Model 3."

Maybe. But it didn't sound that way from the OP. And sometimes young people can talk themselves into stretching to buy something more expensive than is wise. I know I did when I was young and I wanted to help them potentially avoid a painful lesson if I could. It would suck if they had a car repossessed and their credit ruined if their Prius was working just fine for them. And I did say "I mean no disrespect" in my post and purdy007boy doesn't seem to have taken offense so I don't think you need to worry about it.

Carl

Frank99 | 2017年4月2日

reed -
Fully agree with you. The $7500 credit has nothing to do with whether you owe or are expecting a refund.

EaglesPDX | 2017年4月4日

"Don't tell someone what they should or shouldn't do with their money."

So that you can...how silly. Telling people where to find resources that tell you what you can afford in a car is being very helpful as is sharing the exerience of too much debt for a too expensive a car. Cars in particular which has such non-economic drivers of status symbols. A new car is really not a good deal much less a new, high end luxury car which the T3 will be as the low end of the Tesla luxury line of vehicles.

The best economic sense is run the Prius into the ground, have some years of no payments and put money in the bank, pay down all other debts, etc.

Look at used Volt or Plug in Prius even.

Carl Thompson | 2017年4月4日

@EaglesPDX

Good points.

SamO | 2017年4月4日

Echo

Haggy | 2017年4月5日

"A new car is really not a good deal"

Neither is a really expensive cut of steak, which loses its value much faster than stew meat. Why pay more when they will end up at zero value at the same time no matter which one you buy?

Mapowing | 2017年4月5日

@purdy007boy
When I found out that the $7500 federal tax incentive is a CREDIT to TAX LIABILITY, I immediately changed my withholding status to have less taxes taken out of my paycheck. Rather have more money in the pocket NOW than getting it later as a refund...I am also a new Tesla owner and have been following Byorn Nyland at YouTube who does fantastic and informative videos regarding his Model S and Model X experiences in Norway where there's plenty of snow and cold temperatures; your concern about RWD is valid but don't overblow it...

SoFlaModel3 | 2017年4月5日

@Mapowing that is a potential risk. If you take delivery after 12/31/17 you may be way off on your taxes for the year. You should not adjust withholding unless you're sure of delivery.

Mapowing | 2017年4月5日

@SoFlaModel3 I have paid more than $7500 in taxes for each of the past 5 years, a risk I was willing to take since I am not sure if the FULL federal incentive is still available when I take delivery...like A LOT OF people who have desired to have an AWD Model 3, I wish it was an option available right of the gate this year, but Elon's tweet was a bummer for me as that upgrade cost could have been mitigated by the federal incentive money...

Adamholmes749 | 2017年4月5日

Carl and all you older wiser folks...

I'm still struggling to understand the tax credit, and hopefully you can clear this up for me. Without getting to in depth about my finances from my w2 I paid a bit over 6000 in federal taxes this past year and had additional income that wasn't taxed which resulted in me paying about additional 1000 federal . Does this make my tax liability and what I would qualify for $7000? Or do I need to look elsewhere to find out?

If this is the case for me would I just not have to pay that much the following year when I file taxes?

Also I know this is stretching for me if I can afford this car and I'm still back and forth about it. I will be getting a base model and hopefully qualify for most of the credit. Maybe im dumb thinking I can afford this, but I do have no mortgage or debt, a very low cost of living and have saved around 100k

Frank99 | 2017年4月5日

Yes, your tax liability for last year was $7000. If you get a Model 3 this year, and your income stays the same, you'll get a $7000 tax credit. Because $6000 of your tax liability was withheld from your paycheck and reported on a W-2, you'd get a $6000 tax refund check. The $1000 of additional tax liability from your non-W2 earnings would be cancelled out by the additional $1500 of credit that you were entitled to. You would lose out on the last $500 of the credit, because you don't have any other tax liability to match it up with.
If you had investments that show a gain, you could consider selling them to create a tax liability that you could cancel with the $500 credit. Re-buy the investments, and you've effectively moved the cost basis of the investments up so you'll pay less taxes on them in the future when you sell them.
Disclaimer: I am an engineer, not a financial advisor. More specifically, I am not YOUR financial advisor. Nor am I an expert in the tax code, so nothing I say should be relied on in any way, shape, or form.

mntlvr23 | 2017年4月5日

"A new car is really not a good deal"

Not necessarily true. Pick out a new car with high reliability, that suits your needs and tastes, negotiate at least 20% of the sticker price, drive it for 12-15 years. It will be as good of a deal you can find (unless you get lucky with older used cars and are handy as a home mechanic)

You are not buying someone else's bad history, you do not have huge depreciation as you drive it off the lot, and if maintained properly it should have reasonable upkeep costs. This has served me well for many vehicles.

Buying or leasing a new car every two or three years on the other hand is a different sad story.

Rocky_H | 2017年4月6日

@mntlvr23, You are talking about buying a brand new car and say:
"you do not have huge depreciation as you drive it off the lot"

That is laughable. This process you are talking about with keeping a car 12-15 years would still work out cheaper by starting with a 1 or 2 year old car. It will not be any worse off in reliability, but WILL have already taken a pretty significant hit on depreciation.

KP in NPT | 2017年4月6日

No prices other than the base price have been announced. anything else is speculation. flagged.

Carl Thompson | 2017年4月6日

@KP

Geez, KP. He's just estimating. His estimates don't seem that far off. No need to flag _everything_!

KP in NPT | 2017年4月6日

Carl. If he were estimating he should say so. If you'd been around you'd know he has done this from day one he arrived, and states is opinion as fact on purpose. If you can't see his trolling by now then you never will.

People new to this board deserve to know when things are true or not. They come here for information. If it is an opinion or an estimate, it needs to be prefaced as such. Eagles deliberately chooses not to. Now why is that?

finman100 | 2017年4月6日

Keep using T3. keep getting flags.

KP in NPT | 2017年4月6日

I'm a she. And my previous username was default and not chosen by me. So, I chose one.

And as an owner I will not sit back and let lies by posted by a troll who never intends to buy a Tesla to go unchallenged. Don't like it, too bad.

KP in NPT | 2017年4月6日

I'm confident my reputation around here is a hell of a lot better than yours, so....get back to your trolling.

finman100 | 2017年4月6日

So sorry about your sad attempts. must be difficult not having a clue. I, too, will not let you spout the crap that you do without being corrected. you know. like a dog. please just leave the forum and everyone will be better off.

EaglesPDX | 2017年4月6日

Now that was a rude comment to make to KP in NPT who used to be someone else who used to be someone else etc. etc.

Now back to the topic of could someone making $80K a year with one kid and $5K in potential tax credit afford a $50K +/- Tesla.

Looks affordable even with the AWD and other essential options for Montana weather.

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