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0-60

0-60

When they announced the 0-60 times I didn't think much of it. Today I was stopped in my Sonata at a red light and was like "let's time this 0-60". Needless to say I stopped at 10 seconds and didn't think anything of it. Half that time in the M3 is going to be sweeeeeeeeeet.

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月14日

@carlk:
"You have not answered my question what manual car you have owned. I'm not even going to ask you how well you drive your car but you really sounded like you have never driven one."

Of the 15 cars I've owned so far 8 have been stick. Currently the only manual I own is a Z4.

Carl

JAD | 2017年9月14日

Sorry Carl T, carlk is correct. I teach high performance driving and race a manual 911, so I can drive OK. My friend, who also club races Porsches was in his Model S 60, the slowest one. I was in my Carrera S 6 sp. Going down the freeway, we both slowed to ~40, I downshifted to 2nd, then we both floored it and he easily drove away. I started gaining at ~70 mph but the race was over. The manual ICE, even when in gear and spinning at high rpm is slower. All the gas pedal does is open a flap which allows air to start flowing into the engine manifold, the computer reads the air inflow and starts adding more fuel to match the air flow, this ramps up to larger amounts of air being pumped into the cylinders which causes all the rotating mass of the engine and giant flywheel to slowly start turning faster. All of these components add tenths of a second, whereas the electric motor instantly responds with full power upon flooring the pedal. A mere second is forever in a quick race.

Ironically and contrary to popular belief, an ICE is quicker off the line if using launch control. I think it was Motor Trend that did a detailed analysis of the Tesla vs 911 Turbo S vs La Ferrari. The ICE car spins significant mass at 4000 rpm and when the electric clutches are dumped, the car does leap forward for the first foot or two, beating the Tesla. However, they found even against those supercar ICEs, the Tesla quickly caught up and was faster until about 100 mph, where the gearing began to help the ICE overcome the Tesla. And remember, this is a 5 passenger 4 door large sedan vs the fastest supercars.

An M3 in the real world under normal usage will beat virtually anything under 6 figures.

carlk | 2017年9月14日

Then you're the one who does not know how to drive a car. No one wants to keep the car at high rpm just "to be ready". It's punishing to drive that way.

carlk | 2017年9月14日

Again that was responding to Carl Thompson.

JAD | 2017年9月14日

Here is the article on launch info. Very interesting read.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2017-porsche-911-turbo-s-hardest-launchin...

JAD | 2017年9月14日

Sorry, above was also a good, similar article, but this one discusses the first foot or 'jerk response'

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2017/2017-tesla-model-s-p10...

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月14日

@JAD

We were not talking about 40MPH. We were talking about 60MPH in the specific case where the EV and ICE vehicle have the same 0-60 time but where the EV has traveled further when reaching 60. In your example no one doubts that the Model S is quicker / faster.

Carl

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月14日

@carlk:
"Then you're the one who does not know how to drive a car. No one wants to keep the car at high rpm just 'to be ready'. It's punishing to drive that way."

You should go back an reread what I said as you seem to be misunderstanding.

Carl

deemo | 2017年9月14日
JAD | 2017年9月14日

@Carl, 60 would have been worse for the Porsche as it would have been in 3rd gear, thus slower acceleration. The point is ICE cars take significant time to get the mass of their drive train rotating and accelerating. After several seconds of acceleration, they start coming back but at any speed, the EV will respond quicker and pull ahead.

The imaginary case way above in this thread was for example only, you are falsely extrapolating from it.

According to MotorTrend, the 911 Turbo S is .1 seconds slower to 60 than the P100D, but .2 seconds slower 45-65. They optimize the transmission for the test as you suggest, but the Porsche loses worse in the shorter sprint, 1.3 seconds vs 1.1 for the Tesla.

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月14日

@JAD:
"... but at any speed, the EV will respond quicker and pull ahead."

That cannot mathematically be true in the specific conditions we are discussing. If an EV and an ICE vehicle have the same 0-60 time but the EV travels further then there must be some set of speed between 0 and 60 where the ICE vehicle is out accelerating the EV. Very likely at the very high end of the range (60MPH) though I suppose not necessarily.

Carl

hsadler | 2017年9月14日

Doesn't matter if you're driving in a lower gear at, let's say 60. When you need to accelerate (even if you have previously down shifted) there will be a delay or hesitation when you press the accelerator in your ICE car.
If you've driven a Tesla, you will definitely notice a difference - at any speed.

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月14日

@hsadler:
"When you need to accelerate (even if you have previously down shifted) there will be a delay or hesitation when you press the accelerator in your ICE car."

In my manual transmission cars I've notice minimal hesitation under these conditions (provided I'm in the right gear). Under these conditions the hesitation (delay) has been similar to all 3 of the EVs I've owned (though none is a Tesla). I will certainly grant that any EV destroys almost any ICE vehicle from 0 but in my personal experience at high speeds some manual ICE vehicles can accelerate similarly to an EV and with similarly low hesitation (with the proper technique).

But I probably have more experience owning manual ICE vehicles (8) and EVs (3) than most people here.

Carl

carlk | 2017年9月14日

Lol.

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月14日

@carlk:
"Lol."

Cogent rebuttal! Good job!

Carl

JAD | 2017年9月14日

""... but at any speed, the EV will respond quicker and pull ahead."

That cannot mathematically be true in the specific conditions we are discussing."

Carl, it is absolutely true. At any given constant speed, hitting the accelerator will result it faster acceleration in the ev. Now, if the ice had already been accelerating, it could be faster. If the ice starts at zero, and accelerates fully, and the EV is going 60 until the ice hits 60 at full acceleration, it will win. After several seconds of acceleration an ice can then out accelerate the EV, but never for the first second at any constant speed.

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月14日

@JAD:
"Carl, it is absolutely true."

If it were true then the ICE vehicle could not possibly have the same 0-60 time as the EV. It would have to be slower. Remember we are talking about 2 cars with the same 0-60.

"At any given constant speed ..."

Even if that were meaningful (it's not) it would be irrelevant in the context of 0-60 times.

Carl

KP in NPT | 2017年9月14日

Teaching high performance tech racing is no matter when Carl T using his brains.

lulz

JAD | 2017年9月14日

Carl, assume the EV accelerates at 10 mph per second, the ICE accelerates at 60 miles per second, but takes 5 seconds to get going (an exaggeration, but not too far off).

Time EV Speed ICE Speed

1 second, ev 10 mph, ICE 0
2 seconds, ev 20 mph, ICE 0
3 seconds, ev 30 mph, ICE 0
4 seconds, ev 40 mph, ICE 0
5 seconds, ev 50 mph, ICE 0
6 seconds, ev 60 mph, ICE 60 mph same 0-60
7 seconds, ev 70 mph, ICE 120 mph

Mathematically proven possible, and a fairly accurate, but exaggerated example of how it works. Pick any speed and plug in the numbers, same result.

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月14日

@JAD

We're taking about acceleration, not speed. In your example at 60MPH the ICE vehicle is accelerating at 60MPH/sec whereas the EV is still accelerating at only 10MPH/sec. 60 > 10 so the ICE vehicle is accelerating faster.

Carl

JAD | 2017年9月14日

After 5 seconds the ICE accelerates faster, absolutely, but in any race at any speed, the EV is faster, has better acceleration, whatever you want to call it for the first 5 seconds of any race. In normal driving the race is long over and the EV is much quicker despite the same 0-60 time.

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月14日

@JAD:
"... but in any race at any speed, the EV is faster, has better acceleration"

The "faster" part can be true but the "has better acceleration" _cannot_ be true at some points below 60MPH for the case where both cars have the same 0-60 AND the EV has gone further at 60MPH.

Carl

JAD | 2017年9月14日

I am trying here, are you just trying to be argumentative? If you would quote my entire sentence or look at any of the information above, you should clearly see the EV has better acceleration "for the first 5 seconds", then the ICE has better acceleration after 5 seconds. They have the same 0-60 of 6 seconds and the EV wins ANY race under 5 seconds at ANY speed as the ICE doesn't even start going for 5 seconds, so even an infinitely fast ICE would lose as the race is over before the infinite acceleration starts.

So yes, the snippet you quoted isn't true, but my statements are all true.

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月14日

@JAD

Here's what you said several posts above:

"60 would have been worse for the Porsche as it would have been in 3rd gear, thus slower acceleration. The point is ICE cars take significant time to get the mass of their drive train rotating and accelerating. After several seconds of acceleration, they start coming back but at any speed, the EV will respond quicker and pull ahead."

You clearly say "but at any speed [in the 0-60], the EV will respond quicker and pull ahead."

This is not true in the conditions we are talking about. It does not matter what you said, what @carlk says or what @KP says. The math _requires_ that at some point before 60MPH the ICE vehicle _must_ be accelerating faster.

Now you appear to claiming that you didn't actually say what you did in fact say and claim that you weren't talking about 0-60 times after all but actually about 0 to some arbitrary cutoff (5 seconds) that has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about but which allows you to pretend you were right.

You'd be better off just admitting you were mistaken.

Carl

JAD | 2017年9月14日

"but at any speed [in the 0-60], the EV will respond quicker and pull ahead."

At any speed, the cars can start at 0, 10, 20, 55, whatever the constant starting speed is and both hit the gas (whatever), the EV will jump ahead because it responds quicker. Then, several seconds later, the ICE will build momentum and eventually catch and pass the EV, but the EV will always get ahead.

This is what is being discussed, an EV and an ICE with the same 0-60, the EV feels faster and provides better acceleration when it is important, off the line, merging, etc. An ICE with a manual in the proper gear will be better than an ICE with an automatic that needs to shift, but still no where near as quick as the EV with no shifting and no lag of ICE internals.

carlk | 2017年9月15日

JAD Don't put yourself so low to argue with that moron. He's either lying, totally clueless, thinking we are all that stupid, or all of the above.

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月15日

@carlk

If you believe that two cars can have the same 0-60 time where on car has traveled further than the other at 60MPH without each car having out accelerated the other at some point then _you_ are the "moron."

In our example of an EV and an ICE vehicle with the same 0-60 time the ICE vehicle's rate of acceleration _must_ be higher than the EVs at some point. That's the only way it could "catch up" and post the same time. You are simply wrong if you deny it. You can resort to name calling all you like but it doesn't change that fact. It just makes you look like someone who resorts to name calling when he's wrong instead of manning up and admitting it.

Carl

ReD eXiLe ms us | 2017年9月15日

A bit over two decades ago, I noticed that the Lamborghini Diablo had interesting gearing. You could hold First gear through 62 MPH/100 kph before shifting. Tell me, where do you downshift to from First gear? Because even with its stated 0-60 MPH speed, a Tesla Model S would probably smoke/dust/embarrass the Diablo.

Frank99 | 2017年9月15日

I'm going to throw in with Carl T here.

Given his assumptions (normally aspirated manual transmission ICE in low gear, clutch engaged), a roll-on contest between the ICE and EV should be relatively even. The EV can apply torque slightly before the ICE, but the difference is likely measured in tens of milliseconds and would likely be insignificant in the final result.

He's also right that if the ICE and EV have the same 0-60 times, but the EV covers more distance before it hits 60, the ICE acceleration must be higher at the end than the ICE, so the 60-80 time should favor the ICE.

rxlawdude | 2017年9月15日

Why do I feel like I'm reading the script of "Monty Python's Argument Clinic?"

Frank99 | 2017年9月15日

Are not!

rxlawdude | 2017年9月15日

I told you once...

ReD eXiLe ms us | 2017年9月16日

Are too..

Frank99: And the reason that still doesn't work can be seen in a myriad of DragTimes YouTube videos where the Model S blows away high powered ICE vehicles that are in the right gear and revving into the sweet spot of their power band. It is also why HELLCAT drivers cried 'no fair' and started asking for a head start -- they got tired of staring at Tesla taillights for the length of the run. Fact of the matter is that the Tesla is ALWAYS in 'passing gear'. Something ICE supporters scratch their heads over. It doesn't matter who is being 'reeled in' or how much faster your car was going, when it was behind the Tesla the whole time. It matters who crosses the finish line first.

But, but, but, but... But, nothing. You lost. Pay up.

deemo | 2017年9月16日

The reason that the Tesla will win at pretty much every speed is the instant and continuous torque, no equivalent gas or hybrid vehicle can produce the continuous instant torque of an EV.

Look at the P100D vs La Ferrari and Porsche 918. All 3 have electric motors but the need for the others to spool up the gas part means even though all 3 start with electric motor off the line, the Tesla not needing to change gears still wins. PS - the 4 door, heaver and lower HP Tesla starts actually behind the others off the line but can hold the high initial torque longer. This is why the Tesla is faster 0-30, 40, 50 and 60. It is not till 70 that these others start to beat the Tesla due to higher horsepower. here is the chart

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2017/2017-tesla-model-s-p10...

"We all understand acceleration. It’s the rate of change of velocity. This 4,891-pound Tesla Model S P100D does it best, reaching 30, 40, 50, and 60 mph from a standstill more quickly than any other production vehicle we’ve ever tested, full stop. In our testing, no production car has ever cracked 2.3 seconds from 0 to 60 mph. But Tesla has, in 2.275507139 seconds.The Tesla does not hold the advantage forever, though, because higher speeds give the advantage to horsepower over instant torque. The Ferrari LaFerrari hits 70 mph a tenth of a second quicker; the Porsche 918 and McLaren P1 pull ahead at 80 mph, and these hypercars all continue to pull away at higher speeds."

Remnant | 2017年9月17日

@deemo (September 16, 2017)

<< Look at the P100D vs La Ferrari and Porsche 918. >>

We also should appreciate the fact that P100D lost to Rimac Concept One and try to figure out why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u62YpnTIbW4

Tropopause | 2017年9月17日

Lots of good points. I always enjoy hearing from JAD and respect his experience with racing and instructing. Also some great charts posted. I especially like the MT chart 0-60-0 showing 2.5 seconds for the Tesla both accelerating and decelerating. The ICE cars decelerate more quickly, probably due to lighter weight but they can not accelerate at that tire limited rate like the Tesla.

I think what Carl T is referring too goes back to my example of time vs. distance. deemo's MotorTrend link touches on this subject as well.

Carl T- The answer to your question is yes, the two cars (BEV & ICE) with identical 0-60 times will result in the Tesla getting the head start (distance) followed by the ICE slowly gaining back some ground (at some time prior to 60 mph). However, at 60mph, the Tesla will be the leader but losing the distance advantage.

Tesla basically has had four power offerings in its Model S lineage, evolving to combat the disadvantages of single-gear, BEV limitations.

- Standard (RWD)
- Performance (RWD)
- Insane (AWD)
- Ludicrous (AWD)

The Standard (RWD) Tesla S (and now 3) are quick and with the advantage of instantaneous torque can cover more distance in the same time to reach 60 mph vs an ICE with identical 0-60 time. But, as you mentioned, the ICE will start to erode the Tesla's lead at some point prior to 60 and eventually overtake at some given distance. The point to make here, is that by the time the ICE catches and passes the Tesla both cars are well over the safe and legal max speed limits. Basically a 5 second Standard Tesla will beat a 5 second ICE in distance to 60 mph.

The Performance (RWD) has more power to get off the line quicker (0-30, for example vs. Standard Tesla) but seems to be about the same at higher speeds as Standard Tesla. Basically, the Performance Tesla gets an even bigger lead (distance) but still succumbs to a more powerful ICE's capability to catch and overtake at higher speeds.Basically a 4 second Performance Tesla can beat a 4 second ICE in distance to 60 mph.

The Insane (AWD) has two motors and four-wheel drive to accelerate even faster in the low speed regime but still begins to lose some of that umph at higher speeds. (Can you see a pattern here with Tesla's evolution?) Basically a 3 second Insane Tesla can beat a 3 second ICE in distance to 60 mph.

The Ludicrous (AWD) Tesla was developed in response to Tesla's weak area- the higher speed regime. Using an inconel, smart-fuse and eventually a bigger, better-cooled battery (100 kWh), The Ludicrous Tesla is able to extend the mind-numbing acceleration capability into higher speeds and thus protect that distance advantage longer (maybe though 100 mph). Yes, Supercars will eventually catch and surpass the Ludicrous Tesla but not until crazy-high, and illegal speeds of well over 100 mph, maybe even 125 mph.

This cat-and-mouse game between ICE vs. BEV Tesla will probably continue and evolve into something like the new Roadster. Elon seems to appreciate being the best and I imagine his quest to make Tesla #1 will lead to more advances in the BEV technology. The goal post for ICE seem to be moving farther away, eroding at the ICE advantages.

One other note from what I posted earlier. I said that a 5 second Tesla can compete with a 4 second ICE. Naturally I'm referring to the distance race (legal speeds). A 5 second ICE will never catch a 5 second Tesla prior to legal speeds, so that means it takes something like a 4 second ICE to have a fair distance competition under legal speeds.

Carl Thompson | 2017年9月18日

@Tropopause

Yes, exactly!
.

@deemo:
"This is why the Tesla is faster 0-30, 40, 50 and 60."

Sure. But we weren't talking about cases where the Tesla is faster 0-60 (though that will usually be the case particularly with the performance Teslas).

Carl

andy.connor.e | 2017年9月18日

I wish that the Tesla would have a strategic regen implementation similar to the bolt, where you can pull a small lever on the steering wheel. Or have the ability to shift the transmission stick to get stronger breaking. That would be my primary method for breaking. Sometimes you want to coast, sometimes you want to stop, sometimes you're going down a huge hill. Always on low, or always on high is not a great implementation. Should give more options to those who want more strategic input.

rxlawdude | 2017年9月18日

@andy.connor, I prefer not to have my M3 broken. (j/k! Pedantic, yes.)

carlk | 2017年9月18日

"Always on low, or always on high is not a great implementation. "

It actually is. Everything you want, from slowly coasting to faster regen brake, could be achieved by how you feather the go pedal.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 2017年9月18日

UNREPENTANT: A $1,000,000 Tesla Two Seater would probably blow away a Rimac Concept One faily easily.

Tropopause | 2017年9月18日

ReD,

Agreed! Sprinkle on a little SpaceX magic and voila!

knightshade9 | 2017年9月18日

@JAD-

You wrote:

"At any speed, the cars can start at 0, 10, 20, 55, whatever the constant starting speed is and both hit the gas (whatever), the EV will jump ahead because it responds quicker. Then, several seconds later, the ICE will build momentum and eventually catch and pass the EV, but the EV will always get ahead.

Just to toss some actual #s out there-

https://s3. amazonaws. com/amv-prod-cad-assets/files/2015-tesla-model-s-70d-instrumented-test-review-car-and-driver2015-tesla-model-s-70d.pdf

This is car and driver testing a Model S 70D

They include 0-30, 0-40, 0-50, 0-60, etc... times. 0-60 is 5.1 seconds. 1/4 mile is 13.8.

https://www. clublexus. com/forums/is-2nd-gen-2006-2013/489507-how-is-the-is350-so-fast-2.html

This is a post discusing Road and Track measuring similar times on an ICE car. A 2nd gen Lexus IS350. 0-60 is 4.9 seconds. 1/4 mile is 13.5 (Sadly Lexus made the 3rd gen slower)

The ICE car is faster at every step in the spectrum. It's faster 0-30 by 0.2 seconds, it's faster 0-40 by 0.2 seconds, it's faster 0-50 by 0.1 seconds, it's faster 0-60 by 0.2 seconds. It's faster in the 1/4 mile by 0.3 seconds.

The EV is never ahead.

it may well FEEL faster, but it's not ACTUALLY faster.

You might object at the fact they're not -identical- 0-60 times so not fair to compare... but the point is the amount the ICE car is "ahead" at 60 is the SAME amount it's ahead at 30.

It didn't "end up" faster because it somehow sped up "several seconds later"... it was already ahead by that amount and basically stayed there.

andy.connor.e | 2017年9月19日

Its like coasting down a hill, and theres a stoplight at the bottom. You have the regen on low so that you dont lose velocity, but you dont accelerate either. Suddenly the stoplight turns red, and instead of breaking or going to the touchscreen and changing the setting, you can pull a lever like the size of the windshield wipers to engage stronger regen.

Or perhaps the opposite situation, where the light turns green and you want to disengage the strong regen. Everyone has their preferences but for the persons preference of which i have stated, the current regen setup is far from ideal.

stevenroglen | 2017年9月23日

So I just wrapped up my test drive a few hours ago and holy hell are we in trouble. First time in a Tesla S and it will not be my last. Car is absolutely amazing and it definitely doesn’t feel as fast on the car as it it. Drive. 75D and wow. Fast forward to the end of the test drive, my wife was curious about the wing doors on the X so the OA gets the keys comes back out and we are exploring it. My wife sits on it for about a minute and goes “ummm I love it”. Trying to figure out how to make it work but we may soon be an X/S household! Just need to address all her concerns about owning 2 EVs.

dgstan | 2017年9月23日

FWIW - Word on the street is that the 5.1 figure is conservative. Heard from an owner that he was told at pickup that it is actually somewhat faster.

Coming out of a Prius, I'm gonna need some kind of governor.

Pete | 2017年9月23日

What's the effect of flooring it on the Model 3's range?

deemo | 2017年9月23日

On Model S, flooring it has little impact on range, I can floor it at each light and still get under 300W/mi on my commute (30 miles - 60% Hwy, 40% city). Continuous high speed (75+) and hills have much more effect on range than the few seconds flooring it has.

carlk | 2017年9月23日

@stevenroglen Ours is an S/X and nothing else family and we just love it. Can't think of a reason why we want an ICE car.

stevenroglen | 2017年9月23日

@Carlk I’m trying to get her there. She has a lot of concerns that someone completely new (and who hasn’t read everything about them) to EVs would have.

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